To think most "gifted" children are from affluent backgrounds?

[Notapushymum1]

I was reading about Alma Deutscher, a child prodigy who started composing at age 6 and had her first opera performed at age 9. She is a child prodigy who is home schooled, her parents are scholars with interest in music, she had the best teachers from age 3 and according to Wikipedia:
^^
Professor Gjerdingen recommended to Deutscher's parents the renowned Swiss improvisor Rudolf Lutz, who then connected them with the Swiss musician Tobias Cramm.[51] Gjerdingen sent exercises and commented on technical aspects of Alma’s composition, while Alma had lessons in improvisation from Cramm via Skype, with the pair using the pedagogical method of the eighteenth century Italian partimenti, instructional bass lines used for the teaching of harmony, counterpoint and improvisation.[52] Alma quickly became fluent in the music syntax of eighteenth century music

She spends 5 hours a day on music lessons from "Renowned violin and piano teachers at Yehudi Menuhin music school".

AIBU to think that most kids will become "prodigies" with such input?

I do think it is a mixture of nurrure and nature with money mixed in.
My eldest child now aged 36 was an extremely gifted mathmatician from a very early age. He is now working overseas in a high earning banking role. We are a generally numerate family and he was fortunate to have an excellent state education.
However if he had been gifted in an area which required expensive equipment, fees etc I dont think we could have found enough money to support him.
All 3 of my sons played cricket at school county level and it was more the willingness and interest of parents rather than money which helped them ( bat for birthday christmas etc. Saturday jobs to help with match fees and a car to transport!)

there's a big difference between becoming a doctor/solicitor (which requires A at A level) and being a prodigy.

This is an interesting thread. Someone upthread mentioned schools that offer music scholarships. The Yehudi Menuhin school does (I understand that pretty much no parents pay the full fees) but it is a boarding school which is extremely focused on music (I think pretty much all the kids go on to be musicians). The kids are expected to practise for up to 6 or 7 hours a day on top of their normal schoolwork.

I think you would have to be fairly committed to music to pursue a place at this school for your child (and, in any case, they look for exceptional musicians from age 8 upwards).

One of the local schools around here offers full music scholarships.

CruCru, to get to Menuhin you need to spend hours/£££ beforehand to even be looked at. A child should be quite an advanced musician by the time they apply...

Yes, I am sure that is true. For a child to get to that position, their parents would have to think that music is incredibly important (as well as being able to afford expensive instruments and lessons).

It was a while ago that I read it but I think I remember that in the book Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, she said that she'd cashed in her pension (which I think you can do in the US) to buy her daughter a violin. This horrified me (but then I am very pro having a pension).

Having attended a concert at the Yehudi Menuhin School a number of years ago, I was absolutely blown away by the students' talent and dedication to their art. Likewise, with the pupils from the Royal Ballet School. There are incredibly generous means tested bursaries available for Yehudi Menuhin, so only those with a family income of approx. 238K PA pay full fees of 42.5K PA; with a family income of 15K PA, the fees would fall to about £150.00 PA. One of the challenges for parents would be supporting their child's talent to enable them to qualify for a place in this international centre of excellence in the first place.

Same as Elmhurst ballet school too.

I think there are a large number of solicitors/ doctors etc ( and other professions) that could be a prodigy. They chose that field.

Ha ha CruCru, every violin upgrade terrifies me, but no I won't cash my pension for it, I don't think it's worth it. I don't want DC to grow up into a serious musician, my friend's son is one, he is paying a "mortgage" on his violin and still lives in a flat share at a grand old age of 30, after graduating from the famous northern music school... It's not what I'd like for my own children...

Or may be they were encouraged to enter that field.

There are lots of kids whose parents are talented at something, maybe tried to teach the kid to do that thing, but the kid just isn't any good at it. Not everybody who is gifted at something is also good at teaching it or finding good teachers for it. I know a number of university professors who are brilliant in their area, but are not very good at teaching it to others.

Of course, you don't hear as much about that, because the story of the musician's kid who can't play isn't as interesting or appealing as the musical prodigy whose parent was also a musical prodigy.

A low socioeconomic status prodigy isn't going to be able to do as much as a high socioeconomic status one, because lessons in things like music cost money. They're also less likely to be recognized as a prodigy, because the teachers who might notice these things have conscious or unconscious class biases (as does everybody, pretty much). There are other barriers for prodigies of low socioeconomic status, too, like a parent's job not giving them the flexibility to shuttle kids to lessons.

Interestingly, many (most?) prodigies are rather less skilled in the pretty important matters of social interaction and personal relationships. Their early lives are blighted by having no choice but to exist in a claustrophobic, hothouse environment. Not something to envy.

Rose, I agree. I really like David Garrett (not only because he is easy on the eye) buy his life sounds so terrible and so sad, despite all the money and fame (and good looks :) )

We are poor, typical working class, receiving tc and cb.(for perspective)
My dd can hardly add 2+2, but is very gifted musically.
She has shown an interest from being tiny, and could sing in tune before she could talk, had to have speech therapy pre school and infants.
She attends a school for gifted musical children with children from all over the world, about 300 in total at the school.
She is relentless, driven, ambitious, hard working, and self motivated.
The whole family are behind her and we all support her decisions.
She has an almost 100% bursary and I disagree about the financial aspects.
There are parents on high incomes who couldn't afford the 32k fees at dd school.

A long with money factors what about the surrounding supporters belief in the value/ worth of the subject. I would (probably) never invest a lot of money/ time in certain activities if I was short of it and did not feel it was worthwhile. What if I was the primary supporter of someone potentially gifted in that subject?

Following with interest
I can only cite one example and that is Mozart, he had the perfect combination of 'nature and nurture'. First he grew up in a house full of music where his musician father (Leopold) held rehearsals and friends would come to play in small impromptu concerts on a regular basis so that must have sparked an interest in joining in with the grown ups. Second his father was a knowledgeable musician and an excellent teacher who spotted and nurtured the talent. Third, as a child Mozart was exposed to many other composers and musical styles when the whole family went on their European tour organized by the very resourceful Leopold. Leopold Mozart also secured Mozart's first 'job' opportunities. The big difference was Mozart progressed at lightning speed, there's a reference about him having the knowledge of a man of forty when he was only eight and fellow musicians of the time did think him very talented too not just 'hot housed' so I do think a prodigy is born but needs the right circumstances to flourish. Mozart's sister received the same musical education and was a really good pianist but as far as I know she didn't play any other instrument and didn't compose anything.
Had Mozart been born to say a lawyer his talent may have developed anyway even if at a slower pace or not at all. Or he could have been like the Indian mathematician mentioned above who made it against all odds.

Anyone on here watch this film - Gifted? www.imdb.com/title/tt4481414/?ref_=nv_sr_2

Saw it a while back as it was on. Was quite interesting as covered the hothousing, social interaction and child's interest aspects - all at a fairly superficial level, but interesting to cram them all in. Was interesting that showed that sometimes talent isn't used due to other things that get in the way of it (having a family) and how it can be hard to know just what to do with a talented child. No one really knows as you can never do a controlled experiment to see what the outcomes could be in the endless possible paths to take.

well, mozart's sister is a whole other feminist thing...

but you forgot a fourth factor.
All these things came together at a time when the classical music form was just being brought to maturity.
Had Mozart had the capacity to be a great cinematrographer, he wouldn't have been considered talented because that artform wasn't around....

So Alma may be a terrific composer but she's writing in a moribund form (good for her, because it's a lovely one). She isn't breaking new ground.

Op at DD's Saturday school there are many talented children from deprived backgrounds. At her school many more affluent children have dabbled in instruments but have not invested the time to truly progress

I still think most of the "prodigies" are made, not born

I think there are many gifted children out there, from a wide variety of backgrounds, some of whom will realise their potential and some not, which imo is very closely related to resources and input. There are also a lot of very accomplished, although not gifted, children who benefit from high quality resources and input (plus many more who squander them!). As a pp mentioned, the gifted and accomplished often excel in an area their parents can be influential in, which may have a genetic origin or a circumstantial one, or both.

But real prodigies are fantastically rare imo and I don't think can be 'made'. Having known a lot of children at this point, including a lot of gifted ones, I'm a bit that anyone here is claiming to have known more than one. I don't think I've ever come across any.

I totally disagree. I know of many children who have been given every opportunity and support and have not become prodigies, while they have been successful. There is a difference. A prodigy is a young person with an EXCEPTIONAL gift or talent. It’s either there or it’s not.

Didn't plan to open a can of worms with the feminist thing
There was a woman in Vienna in those days who made a living as a concert pianist (forgot her name) but that was the exception rather than the rule and Mozart's sister missed out on a potential career because she was keeping house for her father after the mother had died.
Yes, good point about the art form and the time frame.

I get what you mean. Gifted children who have expert (usually, but not always expensive) teachers, parents who have the time and/or money to allow their participation in lots of musical activities and a good instrument will usually be more advanced than gifted children who don't have these. However, an unmusical child given the best and most extensive training will never be as good as a musical child who has had the same amount of training. A prodigy is usually someone who is not only super talented, but also has a very high level of concentration, very high level of interest and enjoyment in their area of expertise and at least average levels of energy; these attributes must be present alongside the natural talent for truly exceptional skills to develop.

However, child prodigies don't always go on to be successful in their field. Sometimes they are exceptional for their age, but are overtaken by their peers as they get older.

Why on earth would you want your young child to write and direct an opera? How does that child relate to their peers? You are very wise to not want a career in music for your DC.

I suspect the problem at conservatoire level is that the ones who have the best technique and most musical experience are seen as a safe bet. The fact they enter at such a high standard is just too tempting for the conservatoires and indeed youth music groups with the result that musical potential is not always nurtured.

A regional orchestra regularly has no children from glasgow education authority! I don't believe glaswegian children are less musical than children from anywhere else. The glasgow children who get in are usually privately schooled.

My DS is musically gifted ( perfect pitch, scholarship holder at a london conservatoire) but he wasn't a prodigy. He started playing double bass when he was 12 and succesfully auditioned for a conservatoire aged 17 ( admittedly double bass isn't nearly as competitive as most other instuments, especially when his course is jazz ). It was very obvious that he absolutely loved jazz, once he discovered it at his state school. He spent most of his free time listening, playing, reading about jazz and practising. It very much came from him. But yes, he also got a lot of support from me and his relations.

Some musical genres aren't recognised as much as classical, which also contributes to the rich prodigy phenomenon. Eg jazz, for which you have to be astonishingly musical or hip-hop, or traditional music.

My daughter, working class background, is considered academically gifted. Sailed through schoo, A star a levels across the board, mathematical genius. She also has Asperger's syndrome. She can't cope with any unfamiliar situations, she has never worked as she would probably have a breakdown. We don't claim any benefits at all as the thought of that makes her feel like a depressed failure. We just support her and look after her at home. She is 24. Gifted and genius can be a two edged sword. Not complaining though. Love her to bits ❤️