To think most "gifted" children are from affluent backgrounds?

[Notapushymum1]

I was reading about Alma Deutscher, a child prodigy who started composing at age 6 and had her first opera performed at age 9. She is a child prodigy who is home schooled, her parents are scholars with interest in music, she had the best teachers from age 3 and according to Wikipedia:
^^
Professor Gjerdingen recommended to Deutscher's parents the renowned Swiss improvisor Rudolf Lutz, who then connected them with the Swiss musician Tobias Cramm.[51] Gjerdingen sent exercises and commented on technical aspects of Alma’s composition, while Alma had lessons in improvisation from Cramm via Skype, with the pair using the pedagogical method of the eighteenth century Italian partimenti, instructional bass lines used for the teaching of harmony, counterpoint and improvisation.[52] Alma quickly became fluent in the music syntax of eighteenth century music

She spends 5 hours a day on music lessons from "Renowned violin and piano teachers at Yehudi Menuhin music school".

AIBU to think that most kids will become "prodigies" with such input?

Whoops sorry I was thinking of Alan Sugar

Lol

I met a truly gifted child about twenty years ago. He was the same age as my son (about 5 at the time) but he was far in advance of that.
His teacher was taking him to the same Saturday morning art club in our local library that my son went to, in the hope that it would inspire his mum to take him. It didn't
I ended up giving him a lift there each week. We went into the library afterwards so my son could change his library books and the boy was green with envy at the books he couldn't have. His mother wouldn't sign for a ticket for him, so I got him one. He borrowed the maximum number of books each week, all far too advanced really, and when I asked if he could read them, he promptly showed me. I asked if he liked learning and he said, 'Of course, that's the only way to get out.'
'Out' meant, out of the estate where he lived, out of the poverty he lived in and, presumably, away from his well-meaning but frankly incapable mother who had 6 other kids, a string of useless boyfriends and some pretty definite mental health problems.
Everything was fine for a couple of months until the dog destroyed one of the books and he wasn't allowed to go again in case she got charged for the book.
I never saw him again and often wonder about what happened to him. I hope that he 'got out' but the odds were definitely stacked against him.

Oh hazel, what a sad story. How lovely he had you and the teacher- I hope that he found some other helpful kind people to help him out

Hazell42 that is so sad. I hope he managed to get to do all he hoped and wanted to.

I have a child who was considered gifted at his musical instrument. He was at a music school for a while where he would practise everyday. Since leaving there he rarely practises so i imagine most of his peers have overtaken him now.
Innate talent is one thing - hard work is another.

To flourish it really needs the right kind of parent!!

I see examples of interesting situations as a secondary school teacher in a outstanding and very diverse inner city comprehensive. Kids who do well from hard work and family support but maybe have less 'natural talent' - but to me the work ethic is what will see them through adult life. Kids with oodles of natural ability who cannot behave and don't achieve. One of my lovely form group whose mum is a victim of DV, works all hours in a MW job, drugs in family - he's doing OK but every day is a fight.

You've got to want it though. My father did sports coaching for years and one lad from middle class supportive family was brilliant. Really brilliant. He could have gone all the way, played for England etc. But he was lazy and on the day he was due to be assessed opted to play cricket for the village lads team. Dad was tearing his hair out but his choice.

I haven't read the full thread as I'm on my lunch break so apologies if this has been said already.

I think the whole concept of 'gifted children' is a bit bullshit, tbh. There may be some tiny percentage of people who have truly exceptional brains but in most cases it's a balance of nature and nurture that allows some to excel whilst others stagnate. Of course, more resources equals better 'nurturing'. You don't have to be Michael Marmot to understand that. There's also some really good research on the 'growth mindset' from Dr Carol Dweck, which suggests that children who believe that talent is innate are less likely to work hard to become successful. I guess if you believe you're just 'not talented' and there's nothing you can do to change that, there's just no point trying. And those who think they're 'naturally gifted' are scared to take risks that would help them grow because they think failure would expose them as 'not gifted after all' instead of viewing it as a learning opportunity. I think the whole concept is damaging.

I think 'gifted' can sometimes be genetic. I went to school with a girl who was the youngest of 7. Her and 6 brothers. Their father was in jail and their mother struggled to put food on the table for them. They all had part times jobs as soon as they could and put themselves through college. There was definitely no extra tuition etc there.
All 7 of them are doctors today.

Kerala I agree, my middle DC is quite intelligent and musical (passed exams and got scholarships at 6 very academic schools in London), but also very very lazy. I am very worried about him actually :( He does not have any work ethic and I don't expect him to achieve much unless he changes his attitude ASAP...

I think there has to be a supportive "someone" to spot the talent and push it in the right direction, but not necessarily a parent.

Yes - there's a 14 year old at DD's school who is a maths prodigy. He comes from a very average family, went to a very average elementary and middle school where it was noticed how amazing he was at maths. He was offered a fully paid place at a boarding school designed for kids whose needs are not being met by their local schools, and he's now (at 14) doing second year college level maths. I'm quite intrigued to see where he ends up.

a) to have an opportunity to display that talent (poor Quim)

I'd play a tiny violin for myself IF ONLY I KNEW HOW

I know someone who was a primary teacher and found it frustrating that when told 'your child is really, really good at x, there is a free club/course etc' most of the parents didn't follow it up or show any interest. Wasn't a deprived area but not an affluent one either. The teacher said that some parents just don't show that level of interest in their kids while others will pick up on the slightest thing and invest time and effort into it.

In 11+ areas, the lack of social mobility is hampered by not all children taking it. There may be bright kids in the class, but if the parents don't enter them into the exams, they will go to the local secondary by default (I know, I know, they may do just as well there, trust me I am well aware of the pros and cons) whereas other parents will get their child tutored up to 2yrs before to make sure they pass.

Much like the kid in the recent programme who wanted to be a chef, he was limited by what he knew about the world and it's available occupations. If all kids had chances to be educated based on non-tutor-possible ability in academics, sports, music, etc. then we may see wonderful changes in society. But, who knows!

Kerala you're right - you've really got to want it, it takes such hard work and commitment to suceed in music or sport. talent will only take u so far.
Hilda there will always be a few diamonds in the rough who are so bright or talented that nothing can really stop them. love those stories.

There is also an element within this of parents knowing how to play the system, or not. A gifted child with parents who don't speak english as their first language and struggle to understand the UK school system, how you have to nag to get extra support or get your child moved up in book levels or to do phonics with the year above etc. is less likely to achieve than a child whose parents are happy to be that squeaky wheel.

It's not a fair playing field anymore...

When was it ever a fair playing field? At times people have tried, and probably still try to nurture talent in the disadvantaged, but they can't reach everyone.

A story of success. My late MIL (DH's step mum), grew up in a pretty poor family in Yorkshire, back to back terraced housing. In her Primary school someone introduced some music lessons when she was about 10. She learnt the Piano, and practiced very hard (I"m not sure where her mother got the piano from). I know this because a neighbour learnt the Violin on the same scheme, and said how she'd hear MIL practising and it made her work harder at her own instrument. MIL passed the exam form the Grammar school, and kept up with the Piano. Her mother realised when she won competitions that she was good enough to be able to earn from her Piano playing, so encouraged her and made sacrifices so she could go to college. She got to Music college on scholarships in the end, and had a career as a concert pianist.

But a lot of that was luck. I'm sure even then there were lots of children who had talent but didn't get the chances. And certainly lots of children had chances but not the talent.

Does anyone remember what the chef programme was called?

Generation gifted, he's in second episode. It's on bbc iplayer

I agree with whoever pointed out that a gift might take another outlet depending on your upbringing.

A dazzling musical talent may be channeled into classical music/ violin for example if it's nurtured by circumstance but might also take a different outlet- forming a rock band in someone's garage.
Both could be viewed as equally gifted but likely with less recognition or success for the poor person playing hits in their garage.

Thanks tomorrow

I know a few musically gifted children...and its all about time on task with them. BUT the key thing is their desire to spend their time on music, it isn't pressure from parents...it more like an escape for them...or even a comfort blanket.

So they advance unsurprisingly much faster than my DD who can only be persuaded to about 10 mins practice 3 times a week!

So I believe it is quite intrinsic to the child, but more to do with their personality and tenacity than any particular skill.

For prodigies I think it is different again. I think its a combination of inbuilt skills and personality/tenacity/time-on-task.

And always opportunity on top of that.

But to answer the OP, no, I don't believe any amount of hothousing will create a prodigy. Most toddlers absolutely cannot (and should not) spend hours a day playing a piano.

To answer another point from the OP, the reason their are more Chinese prodigies than British prodigies has more to do with demographics than to do with culture or musicality. For every 1 prodigy in the UK there should be 22 in China just by numbers....

Quim scour your local charity shops? At least there is youtube now so you have the chance to teach yourself. Also, look out for events by music clubs. I loved it last year when one near us let all the kids (and me!) try out instruments like the flute, sax, and so one. There was one kid there, actually who had a go at the sax (never played before, he said) was about ten or so and made all the adults nearby raise their eyebrows. I think one of the music school people ran after him when he put it down If he'd genuinely never played it before I hope someone got him lessons asap as I would put him in the innate talent category....hmm....though, he was at the event so someone, somewhere took him somewhere where they thought he may be interested to go.....which backs up the nurture argument.

To the above, I would say that hard work is vital and knowing how to put effort in is a skill in itself. However, sometimes the confidence of knowing that you are born with talent/s seems to give some people an ability to try/do/achieve other stuff. Almost a 'I'm brilliant, this will be a success' sort of coat (this is a little of the same I see in people who have been to some of the country's very good schools). Equally though, I think those that do coast through can suffer when they do face the need for effort.

I still think most of the "prodigies" are made, not born, and as you said their parents have something to do with it...

No, I don't agree, not as regards real 'prodigies'. For every true prodigy that goes on to become famous, there are thousands of children being hothoused by tiger parents who get no further than being really good at whatever it is. To get further you need real, proper talent, a real gift.

However- I agree that the playing field of course isn't fair! The vast majority of prodigies do indeed come from homes where the opportunity and support has been there. Probably many, many more truly gifted children never do realise their potential because they don't come from that kind of background. Many prodigies are indeed probably lost.

So - yes to correlation between prodigy coming to the attention of the world/the local paper and having pushy/supportive tiger parents. But no to all the tutoring etc. making them a prodigy.

Tbh lots of the richer/middle class gifted kids end up either in private schools or home educated. Some working class kids may also be pulled from state and home educated or sent to private schools with a scholarship.

Beka That is largely the gist of the book Outliers - a lot of it is opportunity. Fascinating story of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and how they got going. Sometimes it is just timing, a person that you /your parents meet. Quim may be great at the violin but still needs to probably make those connections or be busking when an orchestra manager walks past. Similar to how Alma has achieved and how many successful musicians, actors, etc. do well as they have the connections and inside knowledge.