To think most "gifted" children are from affluent backgrounds?

[Notapushymum1]

I was reading about Alma Deutscher, a child prodigy who started composing at age 6 and had her first opera performed at age 9. She is a child prodigy who is home schooled, her parents are scholars with interest in music, she had the best teachers from age 3 and according to Wikipedia:
^^
Professor Gjerdingen recommended to Deutscher's parents the renowned Swiss improvisor Rudolf Lutz, who then connected them with the Swiss musician Tobias Cramm.[51] Gjerdingen sent exercises and commented on technical aspects of Alma’s composition, while Alma had lessons in improvisation from Cramm via Skype, with the pair using the pedagogical method of the eighteenth century Italian partimenti, instructional bass lines used for the teaching of harmony, counterpoint and improvisation.[52] Alma quickly became fluent in the music syntax of eighteenth century music

She spends 5 hours a day on music lessons from "Renowned violin and piano teachers at Yehudi Menuhin music school".

AIBU to think that most kids will become "prodigies" with such input?

Sprinkles If you are interested yourself, you could buy something cheap (tin whistle, ukalele, Argos keyboard) and try learning out of a book/you tube then you and your DC could have a go together. Or cheaper still you could do some copying games with kids percussion instruments and voice...’I go tap tap shake, you go tap tap shake’ that sort of thing?

Talent- comes from nurturing and developing a skill
Prodigy- born with it, as before, like a toddler that can play by ear before they speak type of thing

You can do all the pushing if you have a nanny to cart them round. Need a lot of money though

I volunteer with HomeStart and it is truly disheartening the number of bright, curious pre-schoolers in poorer families who would fly with music lessons, sports coaching and someone to talk Mandarin or whatever, to them.
Often their wonderful parents are caught up in their social circumstances, fighting insecure housing, troubled relationships, zero hours contracts, it breaks my heart to see such potential go unfulfilled.

SofiaAmes, that's interesting! I don't know own any "prodigies", but even with my quite average children I have my hands full. Not sure how they do it..

Thanks camomila that’s a nice idea

This has made me think - what would you do if your child showed signs of being a prodigy in something (either academic or sporting)? I don't have children yet but I think I'd be trying not to encourage them as you so often see cases where child prodigies have actually had a really stressful and sad life. But could be tricky if you child really enjoyed/wanted to do that particular thing. Hmm.

Glad I'm just mediocre!

I agree to some level.

In the example you give, I would suggest that most poor families would not necessarily know or care what comprises an opera or how to compose one. That 6 year old would have to have been taught how to read and write music. That's not necessarily in the remit of most poor families. I'm not from a poor background, and I can read and write music, but even I don't know how to compose an actual opera.

So that child would have to have been shown the world of music to quite a high level from a very young age. That wouldn't be the norm in most poor families. (Not all but most).

I know a child genius who came from a poor family. They had zero input into his education. He left home at 16 due to the poor conditions there, got a job and a bedsit, paid his own rent and bills whilst studying A levels and got into a top three university where he supported himself through a degree and a Phd and he's now a research scientist. His parents did not give a shit about him and he was very disadvantaged but was genuinely bright.

So they do exist but that is RARE.

I suspect that gifted children with the initial potential come from every kind of background. However it is more likely to be spotted and developed by parents who are educated themselves and/or are more affluent.

Looby you go to the library and get books out to feed your child's mind or you show them how to access the information through the net or documentary. You pour knowledge into their bottomless pits of a brain then sob in the corner as they wear you out.

It's a mix of things that include opportunity and commitment and resources from parents but innate talent is a huge part of it. When my youngest brother was a toddler he could hear a song, run through the keys on a crappy keyboard my other brother owned and then play the song as he knew which keys he needed to play in order to replicate the melody. If my parents had the resources to throw at his talent he could maybe have been a prodigy on the level of the child in the OP. But they didn't and in truth my brother was never really that into music.

He sporadically did weekly lessons as an older child and teenager (my parents couldn't have afforded them before that) and with minimal effort he's an excellent jazz keyboardist with lots of musical certifications that he achieved mostly just by showing up. Someone without his innate talent would have had to put in a huge amount of work to come even close to his ability. But like I said, he doesn't even like music all that much as an adult and qualified in a science field.

But don't you think that any toddler can be made into a "prodigy" with the right input? Why there are so many Chinese children playing grade 8 piano pieces at age 3? Does it mean Chinese people are more musical?

You don't need a nanny or a lot of money to nurture a gifted or prodigy child. Of course, like anything, money can make things easier. But there are plenty of poor people with nurtured gifted children and plenty of rich people with ungifted children. Sometimes, it's actually about noticing what your child is good at and nurturing that.

I still think most of the "prodigies" are made, not born, and as you said their parents have something to do with it...

I wouldn't say made, though I think their area of interest is influenced by parents. I worked at a University for years and many of the PhD's I know who are considered "gifted" or "prodigies" in their fields came from poor backgrounds, but had parents that were educated but not wealthy. Especially if they're from Non-Western backgrounds like China, Egypt or India.

Generally they were found during their early school years and placed in accelerated government programs.

Alma IS astonishingly gifted. There is no way that all the input that she has had would have made her the prodigy she is, without the essential fact of her inherent ability. She is astonishing.

I could have given all that input into my DS who is pretty good at music, but there is no way that he would have achieved what she has achieved. Such people are rare.

Having said that, it is true that talent is given the opportunity to flourish when you are well off in a way that is not always possible for those who are not affluent.

Why there are so many Chinese children playing grade 8 piano pieces at age 3? Does it mean Chinese people are more musical?

There's a big difference between the ability to mimic or repeat an already written piece and age 3 and the ability to compose your own piece at age 3. The Chinese and other Asian countries push ability, but not creativity. Loads of technically "smart" people who excel at academics, but suck at innovation.

Yes, except for those who are the rare true geniuses. Such as the Indian boy who had little access to education and worked out many mathematical ideas himself. He eventually wrote to Cambridge University and they educated and employed him. Wish I could remember his name. But these individuals are the Newton's and Hawkings. They are real geniuses, and that is very rare.

But if you are instructed by the best composer in the world since a young age how to compose operas, surely you'll be able to compose one after 5 years of tuition?

Massive difference between 'gifted' and 'prodigy'.

Alma D is a prodigy, absolutely exceptional and, whereas she has no doubt been given huge numbers of opportunities by being born to those parents, she still has an exceptional and highly unusual gift.

Absolutely no way could most children achieve what she has in music with that sort of input. You would have to have a huge degree of natural talent as well as the input.

'Gifted' seems to be a term used by parents for the brighter children in any school class up and down the country. Of course children from affluent backgrounds with educated, supportive parents have huge advantages and are more likely to be 'gifted'.

Chinese people do tend to be more musical (sort-of!) in the sense of because of the way mandarin is spoken, they are more likely to have perfect pitch than Westerners.
Like there are a lot of Welsh people that sing well and Italian Opera singers...it’s to do with the open vowel sounds in those languages.

This is the Indian boy and then man I was talking about. He is long dead but in spite of almost no formal education, he made significant contributions to mathematics.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan

Way more Chinese people on earth= higher numbers of naturally born prodigy

But if you are instructed by the best composer in the world since a young age how to compose operas, surely you'll be able to compose one after 5 years of tuition?

Probably, but not necessarily a good one.

I dunno about prodigies, but I regularly interview/work with young adults who were often 'gifted' children, and plenty of them aren't from especially affluent families. Some are, and it is a clear advantage, I don't deny. But I don't think giftedness can invariably be 'bought'.

But would Alma still be writing operas if she was born in an ordinary family with no musical knowledge and went to her local school and started violin lessons age 8?