To think most "gifted" children are from affluent backgrounds?

[Notapushymum1]

I was reading about Alma Deutscher, a child prodigy who started composing at age 6 and had her first opera performed at age 9. She is a child prodigy who is home schooled, her parents are scholars with interest in music, she had the best teachers from age 3 and according to Wikipedia:
^^
Professor Gjerdingen recommended to Deutscher's parents the renowned Swiss improvisor Rudolf Lutz, who then connected them with the Swiss musician Tobias Cramm.[51] Gjerdingen sent exercises and commented on technical aspects of Alma’s composition, while Alma had lessons in improvisation from Cramm via Skype, with the pair using the pedagogical method of the eighteenth century Italian partimenti, instructional bass lines used for the teaching of harmony, counterpoint and improvisation.[52] Alma quickly became fluent in the music syntax of eighteenth century music

She spends 5 hours a day on music lessons from "Renowned violin and piano teachers at Yehudi Menuhin music school".

AIBU to think that most kids will become "prodigies" with such input?

Professor Green is a good example.

“Green, who was raised by his grandmother in Hackney, said university was never a possibility when he was growing up, despite him having been identified as a very bright child at an early age.

Shortly before leaving primary school, his teacher suggested he should sit an entrance exam for St Paul’s, a highly selective independent school. “But I didn’t want to. I turned my nose up at it. Even at that age I knew it was somewhere I could not belong. There’s no one like me there,” he said.

Home life was stressful. His grandmother was busy doing a variety of jobs to pay the bills and there was no room to encourage educational aspirations. “My grandmother always wanted the best for me, but I was not pushed,” said Green.

“I grew up in a household of chaos. My nan was working three jobs a day. There’s a lot of stress in these households. No one in my family had been to university.”

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/07/professor-green-white-working-class-boys-becoming-more-disengaged

My DD is apparently 'gifted', we are a fairly average working family. Not wealthy nor do we have access to or interest in extra support or private school-ing.
She's fabulously bright and we love and encourage her but that's about it.

I hope she flies with it, she's so capable but we won't push her, it's not in our nature.

I can agree with the doubled edged sword.
It isn't all stress free and wonderful, mine at 11 told me if I didn't let her go to the school, she would never forgive me.
I'd allowed her to audition for feedback for what to do to prepare for audition at 14, and they offered her a place.
I miss her so much and even though she only weekly boards, I don't see much of her, unless it's the holidays.
Then, I ask her what she wants to do, it invariably results in her practising 3 instruments or composing.
Ask what she wants for Christmas or Birthday and it's usually an instrument or accessories.
Even our family holiday this year is to Verona because she wants to attend the Opera season.
She never played with toys as a child, much preferred playing music or singing. I bought her so much that remained untouched that I gave up in the end.

Part of the problem with this thread is that everyone is talking about different things.

• A child prodigy is not the same as a gifted child. It seems to me that the difference is that the former reaches a state of achievement at something that can only be achieved through highly intensive and focused training. We're talking an occurrence much, much rarer than giftedness.
• A person with exceptional talent as an adult isn't always necessarily a gifted child growing up.
• In more academic areas, there is a difference between the achievements of averagely bright adults and exceptional adults (world-leading thinkers).

Yes. In my understanding, a prodigy is someone who has reached a very high level of skill/ achievement. Whereas someone who is gifted has natural talent.

I think prodigies still need someone to nurture or guide them to make the most of their talents but are probably born not made . In the musical ( classical at least ) world many of the gifted children that we come across do come from well off backgrounds . Obviously as Gilly pointed out this isn't always the case , and there is money out there to support less well off children , but for some reason - probably cost , opportunities at private school and thinking to future music scholarships ? it is the more affluent children who pick up instruments at an early age - so those that are gifted maybe are more easily recognised and those families then have the means ( time and money plus seeing its value) to support these children. These children then get lots of opportunities should they wish to take them as they approach their teens which means that there are many more children from well off backgrounds attending Junior departments, National Children's Orchestra etc . This can seem to be at the exclusion of perhaps state educated less well off peers.
As the mother of a 13 year old gifted? definitely talented ( but no prodigy) trumpet player who is from a very middle of the road background I wait to see what happens next . I think it's safe to say that he feels at least like he's one of the few states educated pupils in the NCO . I wonder though if it won't even out a bit as those who were exposed to music perhaps a bit later - but are definitely gifted catch up . Certainly we got lucky in that once his talent was spotted at school someone had the sense to encourage it and then we saw the importance to him of encouraging it . Not sure ( as many have said) that we should really be encouraging a career in music though - but I'm going to have a difficult time stopping him trying I think

I'm pretty sure my DS aged 6 is gifted, science, particularly chemistry is his thing. His goal is to discover new elements and find a practical application for them as he believes there are lots more out there.

Age appropriate info is now inadequate for him and he gets frustrated, he is happiest discussing ideas and theories with adults who are scientists. DH and I are useless and just have GCSE chemistry which is not enough as his knowledge is so much greater than ours. For his next birthday he has asked for specialist tuition in chemistry, it's all led by him as I'm not a tiger mum.

He goes to a private school and holds his own but my DD goes to a really top private school and although my DS is super bright, I doubt he would've got into a school like hers as the tests wouldn't give him a chance to show off and he is quite shy.

It's hard to know what to do with him, I only realised that science might be a thing when I took him to the Wonderlab at the Science Museum. It was really quiet but lots of workshops going on, he did five and was super knowledgeable about everything they did, after every single one people approached me and commented how bright he is, including the staff. He has always been exceptionally focused but so kind too.

Gifted kids often only need a concept explained once to understand it. Think of how much more can be learned in the same amount of time as a regular kid!

What is being defined as a success? A child who may be amazing at languages but really wants to become a physicist / doctor/ nurse/barrister/SAHP etc... And goes on to do so ( and enjoys it along with a happy, healthy life) would be a great success in my mind. Their success may not be in the original field.

Trumpetboysmum

I totally agree, and with us it was the time we had if not the money.
I was able to travel far and wide with dd, not just our local music service.
We were able to take her out of school and H.ed when at 8 she said school was interfering with her career.
Although she didn't listen to him she had dh home alot who is a leading name in his particular style of Jazz.
All this input has made a difference.
Although, in comparison we encouraged both of her siblings with music and neither was interested, they were sporty.
You couldn't get them to practice without nagging, so we stopped nagging.
With dd you could offer to pay her to stop practising and she wouldn't.

I agree with a lot of what is being said on this thread. Prodigy requires the combination of gift and nurture. I actually met Alma when she was 3, and at that young age she had a strikingly unusual intensity of focus around music. So I have not been at all surprised to hear how she has progressed. Critical to that progress, her parents knew enough and had the resources to seek out teachers and guidance to develop her abilities.

My own younger sister was very similar at that age, and badgered my mother for a year before starting violin lessons. I started at the same time as her, did well but after a few years the difference in our abilities became increasingly obvious. Our parents did the best they could for her, but we did not have the contacts or the finances for her to have all the opportunities some of her peers in our country had, let alone those in the UK and Europe. Actually it was interesting at university seeing the different ways she and her friends, all very capable musicians, developed - some much much further than others. She has ended up a fantastic orchestral violinist.

My own son, slightly younger than Alma, is also a developing composer. He fell in love with the organ at the age of 4. We couldn't have stopped him learning piano if we'd tried, short of getting rid of all instruments (yes, nurture is critical for these kinds of gifts). We've been privileged to access a broad musical and academic education for him, partly because I've got some idea what might be appropriate. He's also I think gifted at mathematics and again I've got some knowledge of how to develop that further so can point him towards things now that I only got pointed towards at the age of 15. Someone made a comment on musical style - these children will write in the styles they know and like at the age of 12, but that won't stop them progressing and changing and making a more individual mark as they get older. My son's current preferred style is contrapuntal and very much after Bach - but in his improvisation you can hear that he is absorbing anything and everything around him and making it his own.

As for what ANY child can achieve, if you have parents interested in supporting music (or other skills similarly), and teachers who really understand how to teach young children and beginner level skills, then I do believe most children can become very competent musicians fairly easily. And in training as a Suzuki teacher I practice what I preach!

You can also be gifted at some things and not at others. My mother insisted that I play the violin as a child and badgered the best teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area into teaching me and I practiced diligently every day for 7 years and I was crap from start to finish. However, I was a brilliant academic student and played varsity sports and did a variety of other things well. Of course, these days, as a single parent to two teenagers, I'm feeling really talented if I can make it through the day without killing one of them (or their mates).

Very possible to be gifted with a disability too. DS6 is gifted/spd/dcd/possible asd, which is a wild ride.

Also, classical music tends to be the preserve of the middle classes.

Yes, what tomorrow said. My dc's both have significant learning differences and ds also has multiple disabilities.

Very much so tomorrow . As well as being seen as a disability though asd can give a young person great focus and attention towards those things that particularly interest them - which for many things for example music can be very beneficial. Not that that will make things any easier for you or your ds at times

Gifted is meant to be defined as ( in educational terms) the top 2 percent on various IQ assessments etc ( the percentage of those falling within this criteria is higher in people diagnosed with ASD then in the general population. However, I do not know about other conditions, but would not be surprised if it was higher in others as well). Some schools, for a while, aimed at spotting the top 5 to 10 percent in various "gifted and talented" programs. I think some gifted children if they can pick up and progress things quickly could become very advanced in a range of things but external influence and eg parental input could increase the chance of them becoming very advanced in certain subjects rather than others . I guess, for instance, if parents felt more comfortable with music and had a gifted child then that child may become advanced in music rather than, for instance, theoretical physics.

Creativity and natural talent can't be bought or taught. A child with neither won't get as far no matter how much money their parents pour into them.

Gifted is meant to be defined as ( in educational terms) the top 2 percent on various IQ assessments etc ( the percentage of those falling within this criteria is higher in people diagnosed with ASD then in the general population

Interesting. You wouldn't get into MIT by being top 2%.

I actually think that creativity, especially in small kids, can definitely be taught. I think my youngest (and also myself) are both examples of that. I was taught art starting in an early age, I grew up being a very creative person, I am sure it was due to my mother's involvement and also thanks to formal art lessons with very good teachers.

Purely a definition☺️. I think most people (in the UK especially) would think of probably the top 0.5 percent. This obviously means around 2 in each year group of a big primary school with an in take of 100. So we will all most likely know "gifted" children. A prodigy is something else ( in my mind at least).

Having a well above average child is bloody hard work. The age my smart-arse- one is at i feel like I have a first year degree student on my hands for all the sanctimonious things they come out with from articles they've read and news reports they've watched etc.

I am not wealthy, far from it, and for much of their lives my dc were raised in a single parent household.

My life would have been infinitely easier if the smart-arse- was average!!

It hadn't really occurred to me you could be gifted in science from a young age.

I wonder if my DD is. She pointed the error in the argument against the earth being flat (that you would fall off the edge) that was put forward in a science museum when she was 5 yo. Recently (now 6yo) she worked out that circularly polarized light could get through crossed polarizers without being told in advance of its existence. We also just bought settlers of catan and she worked out for herself which numbers on the hexs would come up most often when two dice are rolled.

On the other hand she is not at all obsessive about anything...she darts between a million interests and never focuses...so possibly not!

Even a prodigy only has 24 hours in a day (I suppose unless one of them invented a Time Turner). They can't be devoting hours to their music/art/math/whatever and be doing all the social stuff that normal kids do. Most of them have to learn reading, math, and the other school skills that other kids do (the ones who don't learn this stuff are probably even worse off).

she's also full of existential dread at the moment because 'I just don't see how a finite measurement can have meaning in an infinite universe'.

It is a little like having a moody teenager around....