to be pissed off that I'm being charged for the snow days

[DefinatelyNotAPooTroll]

Children's nursery closed for the 2 snow days a couple of weeks ago and nursery have made the decision to charge for those days.

I feel really pissed off as I had to take unpaid leave + make time back in lieu.

I have two under three so it's not bloody cheap either!!

Apart from this I couldn't be happier with them. It's a wonderful nursery. They're worth every penny we pay them but I'm really naffed off they charged for this!

I'm being unreasonable, aren't I?

I still think it hinges on whether they paid their staff for that day.
If they didn't then they have made a tidy profit from the bad weather at the expense of their own staff. That's not good.
If they paid their staff, that's great and I would happily pay.

If there's nothing in the contract then you are not liable. But if you pay you will be setting a president.

We have a similar complaint but it's about preschool. Our son goes for two full days a week and missed one because school had a snow day. It looks like we're still being charged for his lunch and the half hour we have to pay for lunchtime care. Seems pretty unfair tbh.
I know it's not a lot of money to some people but it is to us.

Sorry I know I’m missing the point of the thread but surely in your workplace you either have to take the time off as unpaid OR make the time back. It looks as though you are having to do both

Childminder here. I stayed open over the snow days and was available should parents still want me, so I've not refunded anyone who didn't turn up.
If I'd decided to close, I would have refunded fees though.

All families are within walking distance so could have made it if they had wanted to. Parents wanted to take the opportunity to enjoy a couple of snow days with their kids, and I don't blame them one bit!

As a childcare provider, I would respectfully question them charging for days they've had to close. This is what insurance is for.

Agree that legally, if it’s not in the contract they can’t insist you pay for a service not provided. I do think businesses should be charging enough to take a hit like a snow day without expecting their clients to cough up for a service not provided - evaluating the full costs and absorbing risk is part of what makes businesses useful. But we all know that generally nurseries in the U.K., in large part thanks to government policies, are running on razor thin margins, so I would be a bit concerned about the nursery going under from something like this if they didn’t get paid. Paying I s a poor precedent to set though.

my kids swimming teacher couldn't get in during the snow so we were offered an extra lesson next term or a refund. Seems fair.

@BoombBoomsCousin "I do think businesses should be charging enough to take a hit like a snow day without expecting their clients to cough up for a service not provided" - to be honest, childcare is already expensive enough without them writing contingencies into the daily rates too. I'd rather pay less per day all year round and maybe take the hit if and when there is a snow day. To provide context, my son has been in the same nursery for over 3 years and in all that time, it has only closed for 2 days (for very extreme snow that made it difficult for even farmers with tractors to get through). Obviously that's just my experience though, there might be other parents who would be happy to pay more every day to cover these eventualities.

flobella customers pay it in the end either way. If it’s something where the business feels the cost and can’t automatically pass it on without thinking, they have more incentive to avoid cutting the service. So, theoretically, having the business work out the risk and incorporate it into its rates should lead to a more efficient sector and overall lower prices for customers. In reality in the childcare sector, there may not be the leeway for businesses to do that because of government policy driving costs up and expectation of prices down.

I hear what people are saying in terms of sports matches being cancelled for team sports they participate in but you can't really compare the two business models - they are quite different
Flobella can you explain how it's different? as I mentioned above we run tennis coaching, tennis is a game that can not be played on a court covered in snow.
Because we were unable to provide lessons we refunded for that class (we charge by the term in advance)
My boss has still paid me, he has paid our rent, the electricity bill. We teach children so we still work to staff ratios and our coaches do this as their proper full time job so they are paid as well. I don't understand how this is different

Ours let us book another day/two half days but didnt charge those whose children are full-time. Last time though, we still paid. Not sure what's right here...

"they have more incentive to avoid cutting the service"

This suggests that closing during snow days is not essential, and something they could have avoided? How? By buying their own snow plough? I can't speak for the OPs nursery, but there was no real choice in the closure of my son's nursery. It would have been reckless to encourage staff to travel in those circumstances - I'm not sure there's anything in practical terms that would have enabled them to open. We don't get snow like this very often in our area and when we do I think it is probably sensible to do the best we can in that situation but accept that many factors will be out of our control.

I do see your point and yes, businesses should aim to be as risk-free and efficient as possible but as you say, there simply isn't the leeway in childcare.

@BoofayTheOompaLoompaSlayer It is very different for a childminder who works from home and therefore doesn't have to travel herself, or ask her staff to. I'm assuming you don't employ staff so don't have to worry about child:adult ratios if staff can't drive to work? It's great that you would have not charged had you not opened but for a childminder working from home, with a client base all within walking distance, there is very little risk of that anyway (unless something drastic happened to your home, such as a gas leak that made opening impossible).

@sarcasmisnotthelowestformofwit Again, a swimming instructor working alone missing probably a handful of lessons is a very different financial setup to a nursery (unless your swimming instructor literally has her own pool that she has to maintain 365 days per year and employs staff to take lessons too). Again, it's good of her to offer the extra lesson/refund (I would have done the same, to be honest) but the financial implication of that is on a very different scale to a business that has its own premises, staff etc.

No other business would charge if they weren't open and available for business" - not strictly true. There are lots of businesses who still charged for services - the gym a previous poster mentioned is one example, as are hundreds of independent schools who do not refund school fees. There are probably countless others.

I don't think there are countless others. The gym I do to close for a day but gave out free guest passes to make up for it. Independent school aren't charging to look after children for a day like nurseries. They are contracted to provide a certain level of education and as long as they can provide that they wouldn't have to give a refund.

Your tone suggests that you think childcare workers are unscrupulous and profiteering, which is bizarre as there is actually very little profit in childcare, probably much lower than you might think.

I don't think they are unscrupulous and profiteering. I just think that they are often unprofessional and don't seem to realise that being a private business or self in employed is not the same as being an employee. There are many advantages to being self employed but one of the disadvantages is that you don't get holiday pay, sick pay or pay if you can't work for any other reason.

In a slightly comparable example, I told my dog walker not to travel over to walk my dogs as the roads were so bad in our village. If she includes the dates on my monthly invoice I will still pay and I won't question it.

That's different because she was available for work but you told her you didn't need her services.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the staff aren’t getting paid OP.
Check your contract and maybe worth checking about the snow days.
I know many people didn’t get paid because of the snow days.

I know many people didn’t get paid because of the snow days.

Yes, many employees were not paid so bizarre that any business that wasn't open expects to be paid.

@Dungeondragon15 yes, I agree, but she said that she was already intending on either leaving it until later or not coming at all and I agreed that was sensible. If her text had come in first, I think I would still be tempted to pay her either way, as a gesture that shows I think her safety is more important to me than sticking to the finer points of who is contractually obligated to do xyz. And also to show that I recognise she is running a small-scale (although still profit-making) operation where she probably can't afford to simply not be paid because of circumstances out of her control (the weather). Obviously we are talking very different sums of money though so it is easy for me to talk about making that gesture.

In terms of the other point about nursery staff "often being unprofessional," I wouldn't agree but maybe I have just been lucky to experience very different nursery workers. I would also argue that a nursery's remit is not solely for looking after children/babysitting - they have an ethos that usually revolves around education and therefore are expected to follow the Early Years Foundation curriculum. They also have to think about child:adult ratios which is often the main reason schools take the decision to close.

Again, I think it comes down to individual experiences of childcare settings - in my case, the service I receive overall makes it not worth worrying about 2 days fees, regardless of the legalities of the situation. It sounds from the other comments the OP has made that this might be the same with her.

@nancy75 I am a bit confused. I'm sure I wasn't referring to your point about tennis coaching. I'm sure I read a comment on this thread where someone said if a sports match was cancelled they wouldn't expect to still pay the fee but maybe I am going mad as I can't find it now. I'm sure I read something that specifically said about team sports but I must be imagining it!

I don't know anyone who didn't get paid for the snow days but I do know some who had to make the work up at another time.

My employer paid me (I completed some tasks from home where feasible) and I paid my nursery fees despite it being closed (and will pay my dog walker despite the dogs not being walked). I saw it as give and take in what was a very rare occurrence.

We had pretty extreme snow here though so I think that I (and almost everyone I know) approached it from the angle that it really couldn't be helped and that we would just have to do the best we could in the circumstances on all fronts. If the weather had been less severe maybe I would have felt differently.

Db runs an outdoor building firm, 30 staff working nationwide. He's lost thousands in this weather, even if travelling to the jobs was possible they couldn't work when they got there. He can't turn round to the companies employing his and charge them because they would have done a job if it wasn't snowed off, he has to take the hit.i don't see that the nursery is any different, they couldn't provide the service due to the snow therefore they shouldn't charge for it

Self employed here - no workee, no payee - whatever the reason. Doesn't matter if it is snow, holiday, or illness.

@Dungeondragon15 yes, I agree, but she said that she was already intending on either leaving it until later or not coming at all and I agreed that was sensible. If her text had come in first, I think I would still be tempted to pay her either way, as a gesture that shows I think her safety is more important to me than sticking to the finer points of who is contractually obligated to do xyz.

That is up to you but that doesn't mean that it should happen! It just means that you are also confused as to the difference between employees and self employed. It really wouldn't cross my mind to pay for piano lesson, dance classes or anything else if they didn't provide the service. Likewise, as a self employed person I wouldn't dream of charging if I wasn't available to provide a service. Even trying to do that just seems so clueless and unprofessional.

Should I expect a refund on the fees for those 2 days, by the same logic?

We did. Not exactly as we’re not getting a refund but we’re having the days knocked off next term’s bill.

In terms of the other point about nursery staff "often being unprofessional," I wouldn't agree but maybe I have just been lucky to experience very different nursery workers. I would also argue that a nursery's remit is not solely for looking after children/babysitting - they have an ethos that usually revolves around education and therefore are expected to follow the Early Years Foundation curriculum. They also have to think about child:adult ratios which is often the main reason schools take the decision to close.

The main business of nurseries with younger children is to provide a childminding service. They may follow an early years curriculum nowadays but that doesn't make it the main purpose and children who don't receive it are not significantly affected with regard to their long term education.

@Dungeondragon15 I dare say my self-employed dog walker will not charge me or any of her other clients for those days but as I got paid myself by my employer, it would seem hypocritical for me not to pay for the services that I had booked in exactly the same weather conditions. It is not because I am confused about what self-employed versus employed means - it's not necessary to patronise me. I am doing what I think is right and fair, you may not agree of course. I happen to believe that a small business owner should not necessarily be penalised because of circumstances out of their control and I can afford it so why not? I prefer to be kind to the people who provide me with a really good service day in, day out rather than nit-picking over what is legally or contractually acceptable. I can afford to take the hit more than they can so I will do it. I'm well aware there will probably be lots of times where they can help me when they strictly aren't obligated to so it will probably benefit me in the long run to just pay for what I had booked even if it couldn't be delivered. Shoot me down in flames, but I genuinely believe that working adults should still get paid even if there is the odd occasion when they truly can't work, such as because of sickness or weather. I know that is not possible in all circumstances but that's the way I like to do things so that's how I have approached situations in my own life. You may only want to do things in life that you are strictly obligated to do and that's fair enough - we all have our own ideas on what is right and wrong.

I still don't get the comparison between dance classes or piano classes and a nursery school - again, very different overheads, very different implications but I can see why you wouldn't charge if you were offering those types of services. To be honest I wouldn't either but that doesn't mean I begrudge those that do. If someone provided a mediocre service, I probably wouldn't be too worried about it but those that do work consistently hard should be rewarded by loyalty and kindness from their clients. In my case (and in the case of the OP) the nursery is fantastic and so what does 2 days of fees really matter in the big scheme of things? It's expensive but it's not the end of the world.

@Dungeondragon15 Well I must be really lucky then as the nursery that I use is way above what I would describe as a "childminding service."

What awful luck that you have clearly only used poor quality childcare settings in the past.

I can't say that I am too worried about whether other children who haven't followed the EYFS have been significantly compromised in terms of their education - for my child what matters is that he has thrived at nursery, is extremely happy there and that I have been given excellent value for money for his time there. It has been a great option for our family. I didn't send him there to get straight As later in life.