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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

402 replies

yetanothertranswoman · 18/03/2018 09:13

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

OP posts:
imnolaidee · 18/03/2018 18:13

LadyLance I don't se what you wrote as transphobic at all.

I was just trying to find a possible way through the mire. I have a very close family member who has gone through the op and that person would be mortified that they in any way negatively affected women's rights. I try not to lump people like that in with TRA - they are a whole different kettle of fish in my opinion.

Anyway, I think we are agreeing more than not, I am vehemently opposed to self-ID, but was looking for some way to prevent a full blown war as the OP was sort of asking that.
(maybe that's naive and it's already started in fact)

Ereshkigal · 18/03/2018 18:14

The fact that the women who who's file is with the cps, for malicious communication as a hate crime, was at the meeting hasn't been questioned.

Do you think we should live in an Orwellian police state where speaking the plain unvarnished truth is a "hate crime"? Why aren't you pushing for the person she was talking about to be prosecuted as arguably she should be? Yet she has speaking engagements galore for doing what she did to her underage child.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 18/03/2018 18:17

People can hold two compatible views, eg

  1. no to self ID
  2. GRA/"changing sex" should be repealed completely - transwomen are men (Mnhq, hope this is okay to say so blatantly as a statement of what some people believe, rather than a specific attack on anyone?)

Or they can hold just the one, eg

  1. no to self ID
  2. GRA is fine, law is fine as it is now - transwomen are transwomen

There are people in both groups here. We are not the Borg.

IlikemyTeahot · 18/03/2018 18:19

Third spaces, frankly. Trans people probably need a whole unique set of support structures that may not even overlap with what natal women need. Transwomen are transwomen - women’s services may not provide what they need anyway.

this

EmpressOfJurisfiction · 18/03/2018 18:20

Stillscreaming, why haven't you replied to MariaMacLachlan's post of 16:59?

hearthwitch · 18/03/2018 18:21

Poise never used hate speech. She used the word castration which is true and she is being unfairly persecuted

Stillscreaming · 18/03/2018 18:26

@BeyondDeadlySiren

Being called he? Are you trans? Or do you mean people are assuming you're male when they disagree with you?

I'm not trans, a quick previous post search will reveal that I'm a female bodied lesbian of advancing years but I've been called 'he', 'him' and a 'man' on every single thread where I've stated my views.

So far, in this one, I've just been called an MRA and a TRA, it has also been assumed that I'm trans to imply that I wouldn't know how the GRA has impacted women. The first two I take issue with, I'd have preferred to have been asked about the third one because it was used to undermined my opinion.

Stillscreaming · 18/03/2018 18:31

why haven't you replied to MariaMacLachlan's post of 16:59?

Because she has accused me of committing a crime and, if that is Maria and she believes that I've committed a crime, a message board isn't the place to deal with that. I'm sure that MNHQ have my IP address and will pass it on to anyone in authority who asks.

GenderApostate · 18/03/2018 18:40

Stillscreaming - It is Maria - I alerted her to the lies you were telling about her. We care about the truth here .

OlennasWimple · 18/03/2018 18:50

Still - or you could report your posts to MNHQ and ask them to delete them, and I reckon that would be the end of the matter?

NannyOggsKnickers · 18/03/2018 18:52

Would be nice to carry on this interesting conversation.

I really think it’s a three stage change needed:

  1. More money and support for transitioners in the form of counselling, then hormones and finally surgical transition.
  2. Recording sex and gender as seoerate things. They are. You can add whatever rainbow coloured gender spectrum to it that you like.
  3. more support behind getting rid of gender stereotypes and making it ok to perform gender in anyway that you like without being judged. Gender stereotypes are toxic.

So that’s my little contribution.

Self id is the worst option for everyone. But hey, it’s cheap. Obviously why the government picked it.

LostArt · 18/03/2018 18:57

" Recording sex and gender as seoerate things. "

With the assurance that gender doesn't mean sex, and sex segregation can still happen.

NannyOggsKnickers · 18/03/2018 18:57

Oh, and I wouldn’t bother with still they have an agenda to derail any reasonable conversation and love to DARVO.

Stillscreaming · 18/03/2018 19:02

Still - or you could report your posts to MNHQ and ask them to delete them, and I reckon that would be the end of the matter

Thanks for the heads up but I'm absolutely fine with what I've said. I've shared photos, taken in a public place, that haven't been altered and I've shared information that I've obtained from more than one source and believe to be true. The posts are Fair Comment and I stand by them.

RatRolyPoly · 18/03/2018 19:05

I'm just going to jump in with my take on the initial premise; what alternative to self-ID?

Well if you mean the "self-ID" that is change to the GRC procedure which may or may not be considered by the government, I actually don't think it would make a whole heap of difference one way or the other if it DID come in to be honest. I think a lot people think it will because they are confusing it with the other kind of "self-ID"...

...that's the "self-ID" that means shops saying you can use the changing room of the gender you "self-identify" with. Or swimming pools saying you can access the session of the gender you identify as. Or toilets. Or all that other day to day stuff.

And that has nothing to do with the "self-ID" being proposed in law.

I mean nothing.

Literally nothing.

So whether or not there is this change to the GRC process, none of that is set to change, because companies are already doing it. Shops are already doing it. Pools are already doing it.

That's the thing I would like to know the alternative to, frankly.

NannyOggsKnickers · 18/03/2018 19:08

Yeah, lost. That’s what I think would work.

So, for example, some firms (where sex based protections weren’t necessary) could only ask about gender. This could allow more freedom for people to identify as a range of gender identities. A bit more exploration. But not access single sex spaces.

Might also help either the issue of recording medical issues and keeping crime statistics.

Stillscreaming · 18/03/2018 19:09

@nanny

... and love to DARVO.

From my side, it feels like you find it uncomfortable when I mess with your echo chamber.

Who or what is DARVO?

NannyOggsKnickers · 18/03/2018 19:09

I mean forms not firms

RatRolyPoly · 18/03/2018 19:13

From my side, it feels like you find it uncomfortable when I mess with your echo chamber.

You would not be the first the experience that feeling...

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/03/2018 19:13

rat

It appears to me that the changing rooms etc bit only seemed to start when self ID looked like being an amendment to the 'law'

If self ID wasnt a thing im not sure that the shops and leisure centres would be doing this

Probably wrong though Smile

RatRolyPoly · 18/03/2018 19:18

It appears to me that the changing rooms etc bit only seemed to start when self ID looked like being an amendment to the 'law'

I think it's correlation rather that causation, Rufus, although I don't think it matters either way now; we are where we are!

If the changes to the GRC process aren't brought in i don't think we'll be seeing Topshop or Swim England roll back their guidance, do you?

And sports aren't suddenly going to kick out their transgender competitors, no way.

And prisons, and refuges, and hospitals; if changes to the GRC are simply kicked into the long grass and never happen, are they just going to wake up one day and change the way they do thing? Not if nothing changes in society I shouldn't think. And I mean a big change, like it would take years to see that sort of change.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/03/2018 19:20

I don't think it matters either way now; we are where we are!

I deffo agree with that!!

LostArt · 18/03/2018 19:21

"From my side, it feels like you find it uncomfortable when I mess with your echo chamber."

Women talking together is often mistaken for an echo chamber, but this is one of the very few places different opinions are allowed to stand.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/03/2018 19:21

f the changes to the GRC process aren't brought in i don't think we'll be seeing Topshop or Swim England roll back their guidance, do you?

I dont really see why not, loads of complaints might well get them to change their minds if its not 'law'

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/03/2018 19:23

Women talking together is often mistaken for an echo chamber,

Its one of the things that really pisses me off about mumsnet

Disagree and its an echo chamber, a pile on or bullying

I dont mean this thread in particular but its on loads of threads

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