to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

[yetanothertranswoman]

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

Links to support your claim that members were suspended for threats of violence please? You know, to support what you are saying wholesale?

I must have missed where LB admitted to setting fire to stuff on purpose?

Here's her tweet where she claims to have carried out a risk assessment before the arson attacks.

mobile.twitter.com/belloslinda/status/951062804357894144?lang=en

You mean the poor innocent women that did not use hate speech but spoke the truth and is being unfairly biased against

@imnolaidee I actually disagree that women and transpeople can work together on this issue. Or at least, not all transpeople, not with the TRAs. There are people under the "trans" umbrella who want things that are diametrically opposed to the things women need.

My feminism is intersectional. That means I care about the rights of Muslim women, who feel uncomfortable sharing a space with a transwoman. It also means I care about lesbians who feel under pressure to have sex with people with penises.

I actually think a lot of trans issues are male issues- such as the issue that men cannot always express themselves as they want in society. I support any man who wants to wear a dress or make up or whatever in his daily life, but I'm also not that fussed about fighting for his right to do that, and while I think it relates to feminism, I don't actually think it's a feminist issue as such. Trans people need safe spaces. That's their fight. They don't have an automatic right to women only spaces, and they should not try to shut down women only discussion.

I think trans issues come under their own umbrella, and while they are attacking women and trying to steal women's rights, I'm not going to fight strongly for them. I wouldn't oppose a trans-only shelter or prison being built, but I've decided my fight is to keep dangerous people with XY chromosomes and penises out of women's spaces. I will fight to keep vulnerable young people of either gender from being given drugs because they don't express their gender normally.

I also think that a lot of the trans ideology can be homophobic, and actively anti-lesbian. I think trans is now a separate issue to a lot of LGB issues, and I wouldn't fight for them under the LGB umbrella either.

My feminism is not about men- it's about XX natal women.

You can read this post as transphobic if you want, even though I would happily share changing rooms and toilets with most trans individuals on a personal level, and I'm personally sympathetic to them. In the same way, I'm friends with and date individual men but I don't care about them as a class/group and I'm always initially cautious of them.

So why are you so against anyone discussing the GRA? Surely if there has been no negative impact on women, we can look at it objectively on decide for ourselves?

I'm not against anyone discussing it. What I have a problem with is those discussing it, claiming that they speak for 'all women'.

And the pic of Maria you posted is out of context, the video, and your claim that Tara wood has been sentenced was a load of piffle.

I'm dying of The Cringe for you. Actually feeling a bit sorry for you tbh

My feminism is intersectional. That means I care about the rights of Muslim women, who feel uncomfortable sharing a space with a transwoman. It also means I care about lesbians who feel under pressure to have sex with people with penises.

Intersectional feminism isn't about speaking for women from other sections of society. It's about giving them an opportunity to speak for themselves.

Care about women's rights by all means but don't claim to speak for them.

And the pic of Maria you posted is out of context, the video, and your claim that Tara wood has been sentenced was a load of piffle.

I haven't referred to Tara Wood. I've done my best not to name anyone. I think that people can look and that photo, with the videos and draw their own conclusions. I think that most moderates wouldn't want to be connected to the behaviour or the views expressed by either side.

I'm dying of The Cringe for you. Actually feeling a bit sorry for you tbh flowers

That's lovely, thanks. I don't need you to agree with me, I just want you to stop claiming to speak for me.

Stillscreaming, it seems to me that there have been lots of threads telling us to stay away from the GRA recently. You, for example, have been desperately to discredit anyone who is speaking out against self id and the GRA in general.

I don't know if it's the same person name changing, or different TA randomly starting threads. But I'm seeing a trend.

I think you've been fed a lie from the start OP.

I think the days of medicine providing surgeries and hormones this way are numbered. The peak hasn't yet been reached , but it will be reached, and the backlash will be huge.

Medicine and the law have tried to pathologise and medicalise what was always a social problem, and it was only ever a short term bodged fix, one that created devastating loopholes in the law just waiting to be abused. The inevitable is now with us.

I don't have the answer. But I would invest my time in coming to terms with my actual sex and finding a way to navigate life with that acceptance at its core. If it were me.

The biology can never be yours, and the constant pressure upon those who are female to deny their own biology to suit males will backfire hugely.

I honestly think the only transwomen that come out of this unscathed will be those like Miranda Yardley, who have thought this through to the natural conclusion and accepted themselves for what they always were - male.

You mean the poor innocent women that did not use hate speech but spoke the truth and is being unfairly biased against

The one suspended by the Labour Party for harassment or the one who's case is under review by the cps for malicious communication as a hate crime, who has been told not to level the country?

(I'm actually quite relived that someone has finally admitted to knowing about this, it was getting quite Kafkaesque, we might not agree but at least you're not being disingenuous).

I've not claimed to speak for you?

I'm backing off now, honestly, it's pretty clear you're not entirely sure what you don't know and I am feeling very unfair to you now, I normally know when someone's just being an arse or just very very misguided and clueless and I've misjudged it this time.

LadyLance well said. I don't have an answer - I keep changing my mind- but that is pretty close. And agreeing or not it is considered and well written.

StillScreaming I cannot speak for all women. I can only say that for myself there is no crossover - I support A Woman's Place and not the other (my mind's gone blank on the name). I suspect the majority or women are like me but as I've not asked them all cannot prove it one way or the other. I also do not believe the two groups are connected.

I do not support violence. I wasn't at the meeting so I don't know exactly what was said or what the ovation was for. If it was someone saying "let's hurt trans" then it is shocking. If it was someone saying "we need to be heard" I would be standing with them. I assumer the ovations were for the speech, not the speaker, and as I don't know the history of all of them I cannot comment on that.

Except for Posie. At least one of the tweets she is being attacked for was the correct technical term for part of an operation : castration. That isn't hate speech - that is a fact. She is being prosecuted for stating reality, a reality some people dislike, but reality none the less. There is something very wrong with that. I would not only stand for her; I'd buy her a large g&t.

I think we just need to simplify everything. If you have a penis then you’re a man, if you have a vagina you’re a woman. People who take hormonal treatment and have surgery follow this rule. Self ID can be taken advantage of and doesn’t represent facts. It’s all gone a bit mental though. I suffer badly from endo. There was a comment about ciswomen in there. The fact we need to spell out that only ciswomen can suffer from it and the fact we have to label a woman who was born a woman rather than one who self IDs as one just shows how fucking confused the whole thing is!

Sorry meant to say comment in an article on endo

I don’t actually see anything wrong with the current system. Many countries expect much longer than two years to change nationality which is far less complex than changing sex. I really do think that it impossible to be a woman without living as one and a lot of therapy. Womanhood is an experience. I don’t think that one can truly respect women or women’s only spaces if one hasn’t been on the receiving end of the misogyny that drives women into these spaces.

"a woman suspended from the Labour Party for harassment"

"women who have been suspended from the Labour Party for threats of violence and harassment"

"know that a number of the speaker have been suspended from the Labour Party for harassment and threats of violence"

Make your mind up. How many women were suspended, and what for?

Afaik speakers were Sheila jefferies, Julia long and Anne Ruzylo. Venice was the organiser, not a speaker. And posie was a guest.

Stillscreaming, it seems to me that there have been lots of threads telling us to stay away from the GRA recently. You, for example, have been desperately to discredit anyone who is speaking out against self id and the GRA in general.

I haven't seen any telling anyone to 'stay away' from the GRA, which I assume means telling you not to discuss it?

I disagree with you that the GRA has been damaging to women but that doesn't mean you can't talk about it. Talk away but don't pretend you're talking about self ID.

I, as an individual, have made massive efforts to get people to admit what their aims are because I don't think they have been clear or transparent.

I was cowered for a long time by the sheer unpleasantness around this discussion, bring told that I was oppressing other women for disagreeing with them, bring called 'he' or a man for not aquesing to views I don't agree with but I'm not submitting to that anymore. I have as much right to speak as you.

Beyond, it feels like you're kicking a puppy doesn't it? :(

"actually quite relived that someone has finally admitted to knowing about this"

there are multiple threads both about posies situation in specific and mermaids in general.

Given that you were one of the people who benefited from the GRA I don't think deciding if women were harmed or not is your call to make

Stillscreaming, why do you care what we are saying on here? If you are so confident that the GRA is positive for women, why don't you believe that women will see that?

That's lovely, thanks. I don't need you to agree with me, I just want you to stop claiming to speak for me.

Who is claiming to speak for you? I for one couldn't care less what you think. Not sure why you are trying to make it about you I am speaking for myself and the many other women who agree that self ID/men in women's spaces is a bad idea.

"I disagree with you that the GRA has been damaging to women but that doesn't mean you can't talk about it. Talk away but don't pretend you're talking about self ID."

I genuinely don't understand - self id is a proposed change to the GRA.

Being called he? Are you trans? Or do you mean people are assuming you're male when they disagree with you?