to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

[yetanothertranswoman]

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

Alternatively of course, that didn't happen

It's in the first trans men thread, in the last 10 pages or so. It's probably quicker to start at the end and work your way back.

I'm interested in the hidden agenda stillscreaming
Enlighten me as its hidden from me

Oh hey stillscreaming, who was it who.......oh you know....nevermind, I feel a bit cruel now poking you, it's obvious you can't back up your false claim and I'm still going on about it, tis a bit unfair.

I disagree stillscreaming the organisational structure you chose was one that appears to have been selected specifically to infer links to violence. You only appear to want to listen to the evidence that backs your point of view. As clearly seen when you are pressed for evidence

Imnoladiee valid point well made

I think if you have undergone surgery, hormonal treatment i.e. the full reassignment as a male to a female, then you need to be part of all the female machinations, i.e. toilets, pronouns etc. I don't however agree that you are as female as I am, I don't mean to sound ignorant, I just want to be honest. It's a similar argument to cultural appropriation. If you were my friend I would treat you as any other female friend and it would be completely inclusive.
I don't agree with a third type of segregation. If you have gone through all you have gone through, you are welcome in my space.

The 2 major issues I have are people like Caitlyn Jenner, who have had piles of plastic surgery to look female, no hormones and no operations, no commitment to the process and as male as can be. If we loosen the lines, then any male dressed as a female can invade female space.

If the proposed law changes were dropped and the status quo were maintained, would there be a lot less trans discussion?

I genuinely don’t know. For me, I didn’t have any particular concerns about transpeople until the self ID issue came up, but I do feel that it has opened my eyes and it’s hard to unring that bell if you know what I mean.

Some of the problems that will remain (even if we stick with the current system) include:

• Whilst there is gatekeeping before getting a GRC, how are women supposed to know whether someone has a GRC or not when they are in a female only space? I have seen very few transwomen who pass and there is frankly no way to tell the difference between a man who is pretending to be trans for nefarious purposes and a transperson who doesn’t pass but is not looking to cause any harm. I don’t think it it acceptable to tell women to wait and see if they are attacked. I can’t get away from the fact that it is men who commit ~98% of sex offences and therefore it is fair for women to be given a separate space for their own protection because of this. Whilst transwomen and feminine men may not feel safe from other men in men’s spaces, my view is A) it is not fair to ask women to give up their protection and B) importantly, if anyone can enter women’s spaces then nobody is protected anyway.

• I also didn’t realise previously that you can get a GRC without full surgery. I don’t believe that you can really change sex but if we are going to go along with the fiction that someone is a different sex they should at least have full surgery first. Additionally, it is fairly simple to change the gender on your passport (you just need a letter from your doctor to the effect that you are probably going to live as the other gender permanently). Stronger gatekeeping is needed if anything.

• I am feeling increasingly like gender is altogether a stupid concept which is used to oppress women, and the trans movement reinforces these ideas. We should be getting rid of the concept of gender rather than legitimising it in legislation. I have yet to hear anyone explain what ‘feeling like a woman’ or ‘living as a woman’ means without resorting to stereotypes.

• There are fundamental differences in the biology of people born male and female. Whilst taking hormones can make transwomen less strong, it doesn’t really make them equivalent to women. This is a particular concern in women’s sports and in prisons.

I don’t know what the answer is to these issues. With regards to changing rooms, I don’t think that gender neutral spaces are the solution because the sad fact is there are men who will eg place hidden cameras in them if given a chance. And whilst I have sympathy for transwomen, I think that if we make any changes that place women at an increased risk of sexual abuse, it is unacceptable. It is sad to see the increase in sex offecnces involving changing rooms at Target stores in the US since they changed to gender neutral. There are already too many women who are victims of sex offences, one more is too many.

It’s a shame that feminine men are not accepted by other men, but I think that this is a problem for men to solve, not for women.

Whilst I have sympathy for those with the MH issue of dysphoria, I cannot think of any other such MH issue where the world is told that they need to pretend that something is true when it is not to basically humour the person with MH issues. It is impossible to change sex. Pretending that it is possible is what has given rise to these problems because it erodes sex-based protections. My understanding is that, in very simple terms, people are being offered surgery to alleviate the dysphoria because the mental health professionals consider that a more effective solution for the transperson than treating the underlying MH condition. But I don’t feel that anyone has ever fully considered how this affects women, and I am not happy that are voices are being ignored now that we are seeing the effects.

I'm interested in the hidden agenda stillscreaming
Enlighten me as its hidden from me

The group who have set up the petition have a wider agenda than stopping new laws around self ID.

Women with moderate views are being scaremongered into signing this petition and, if it's successful, this group will claim to speak for those women.

Many women don't like the idea of self ID and that's grand, I don't think it should be imposed.

Many women have no strong views on GRA 2004, to pretend that those who object to self ID also object to the GRA is misleading.

Sorry the second issue is the non discussion of female to male transitions. I feel this has a different setpoint of issues.

So what is the wider agenda?

I think you are wrong stillscreaming
I don't think many women knew about the GRA until TRA started pushing for self ID
It was sneakily pushed through. A lot more know now and are not happy
I would rather those women spoke for me than the likes of Lily Madigan
I have yet to hear a trans woman ask for anything that would benefit a woman

Looks like SS believes the wider agenda is to repeal the GRA

...the organisational structure you chose was one that appears to have been selected specifically to infer links to violence. You only appear to want to listen to the evidence that backs your point of view. As clearly seen when you are pressed for evidence

I've given you examples of a woman suspended from the Labour Party for harassment, one questioned under caution by the police, who's file is currently with the cps for malicious communication as a hate crime and Linda Bellos, a self confessed arsonist, who has been filmed alluding to violence against trans people.

All of whom received a standing ovation. what more do you need to to prove that this isn't a moderate group?

This is a joke now
I suggest you watch the clip of Linda Bellos
I have seen it and that was taken completely out of context
You are no better than a MRA

There seems to be a great deal of panic about any discussion around the GRA. Odd, because very few transpeople bother going through the process. Isn't it something like 5000 people having a GRC?

Stillscreaming, please, stop, it's embarrassing now.

PussyTrumpHat exactly. Still screaming your evidence has been discredited please stop

I don't think many women knew about the GRA until TRA started pushing for self ID

I think you're absolutely right, no one had notice the GRA unless they were trans, until this blew up. We had 13 years of it having no negative impact on women, so why back peddle now and why the hate?

However, only one side is claiming to speak for me, as a 'woman' and a 'feminist', so I'm making my disagreement clear.

I think you'll find the TRAs claim to be speaking both 'as women' and 'as feminists' too.

The teenage around who neck she had her hand/arm didn't retaliate. Another person came in from the side and punched her. It wasn't self defence because the person who punched her wasn't the person she was attacking.

The person she was attacking didn't want to press charges because they were pretty horrified at how things had played out and felt that the attack was disproportionate.

Stillscreaming STOP LIBELLING ME. I did not attack anyone. I was attacked and I held on to my attacker to stop him running away. He is still wanted by the police and if you know his identity then please stop shielding him and tell me his name or tell the police directly. If you don't know who he is then STFU!

With toilets, I think more unisex options should be provided- with floor to ceiling doors etc. However, single sex options should also be provided for those who's beliefs mean they do not want to share facilities

Yes. We need to keep single sex toilets and changing rooms at gyms, pools and shops etc. Not everyone feels safe in spaces that are mixed sex.

PussyTrumpHat exactly. Still screaming your evidence has been discredited please stop

People can watch the videos, look at the photos and make up their own mind.

That the women suspended from the Labour Party for harassment was a speaker at the meeting hasn't been questioned, her own exit interview has been linked to in the feminist section and she has been named by others in this thread.

The fact that the women who who's file is with the cps, for malicious communication as a hate crime, was at the meeting hasn't been questioned.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/03/14/head-of-transgender-childrens-charity-mermaids-targeted-with-vile-abuse-and-threats/

Stillscreaming, you know once you've been exposed as talking utter krill kind of makes it hard for people to take anything you say seriously, right?

Linda Bellos, a self confessed arsonist

I must have missed where LB admitted to setting fire to stuff on purpose?

Stillscreaming, you know once you've been exposed as talking utter krill kind of makes it hard for people to take anything you say seriously, right?

I think that anyone who doesn't swallow wha you say wholesale is being dismissed. I've provided links, photos and news articles.

There are very unsavoury people at the HoC meeting, the meeting was hosted by a very unsavoury man and all were given a standing ovation.

"We had 13 years of it having no negative impact on women,"

So why are you so against anyone discussing the GRA? Surely if there has been no negative impact on women, we can look at it objectively on decide for ourselves?