To think that bullying is rarely as black and white as it’s made out to be in here

[PorkFlute]

For context neither of my children have ever been accused of bullying or subject to bullying so I have no personal bias.
I have worked in a lot of schools though and come across many situations where parents are adamant that their child is being bullied or excluded when what is actually the case is that other children don’t want to play with their child because they are excessively bossy, mean or spoil games. Not playing with someone in this case isn’t exclusion imo and social skills support for the child who is behaving in a way that puts other children off is what is needed. There are also cases where children are ridiculously over sensitive or there is unkindness on both sides.
Obviously bullying does happen and it’s awful but on here people seem to jump straight to the conclusion that bullying is taking place and schools aren’t acting often only on the word and interpretation of the accuser.
Aibu to think that actual bullying ie purposeful and persistent victimisation is actually pretty rare with young children at least?

I agree. A lot of our issues in my school are down to the children having poor social skills and bickering.

However, actual bullying does happen too.

You are allowed to not like people and to choose not to socialise with them unless you are 10. If you are 10 you have to be friends with everyone.

When my child was bullied I remember saying " I don't care if they don't like him just leave him alone" but the school wanted them to be friends. I think that made it worse.

At primary school i was the "nice kid" and the teachers forced me to play with the girl that nobody liked. This made my friends not want to play with me, as i felt i couldn't say no to an adult/teacher, so i ended up getting excluded too.
Now the reason nobody wanted to play with her is because she wasn't nice. She almost got her dad arrested by screaming she didn't know him in the middle of a busy street when he had been forced to pick her up as she was refusing to walk as she didn't want to go where they were going. She was very bossy, wanted it 100% her way with no compromise at all and she was violent if she didn't get hr own way. Usually pushing but also some hitting/smacking.

Forcing a child to interact with someone they don't like, are scared/intimidated by or otherwise want to avoid is cruel. sure, th teachers don't want one kid left alone, and i'm sure that kids parents doesn't want their child left out, but if their child is difficult and is alienating themselves by their behaviour the other kids shouldn't effectively be punished or forced to put up with it. An adult wouldn't interact with someone they don't like, so why should a child?

I was also genuinely bullied at primary school too though, by the male i was forced to sit next to (thanks alphabetical seating plan). He would verbally abuse me, but he would also physically hurt me too. He repeatedly stabbed pencils in my arm trying to make me cry, i went to the teacher and told her, she looked at my arm, said the wounds didn't look like stab marks (true they didn't as it was a coloured pencil he used and i had an allergic reaction to the colouring in it) and basically called me a liar and didn't do anything. Another time he slapped me across the face mid lesson, leaving a hand print, and another girl on our table went and told her and she point blank refused to beleive something like that could/did happen in her classroom on her watch and as she didnt see it, insisted it didn't happen. That set me up to not trust teachers to help when i was being bullied, i was made to sit next to him the rest of the year and the year after too, and when i went on to highschool i had no faith in reporting being bullied, even when it go to the point i was suicidal, having panic attacks and became so ill i had to drop out of school.

A lot of people can't see their kids for what they are so don't understand why no one wants to be friends with them. I knew some kids with parents like that and some who knew their kids were nightmares but didn't seem to know what to do about it.

I was the smallest person in my class, talked "funny", and have a weird first name, none of those things were my fault, and all of them caused me to be bullied verbally and physically. I was a very sweet child but my home life and years of being bullied are probably why I grew up to view people as inherently evil and why I'm more likely to believe that a child said to be a nasty bully is precisely that.

I don't know? I don't teach or have kids in school but I went to school. Loads of kids bullied others for no clear reason at all

I agree OP. The problem is that parents rely on their child’s version of events, which can often be misleading- not because the child isn’t telling the truth, it genuinely is the truth as they see it, but that’s not the same thing as an objective view of the situation.

Bully certainly exists but is not helped by every disagreement between children leading to accusations of bullying.

I was a teacher for 20+ years and have taught children from reception age to year 11. Sadly, there are some children who bully others without provocation. They bully for a myriad of reason including (but not exclusively) their own insecurities, learnt behaviour or because they get a kick out of it. IME there is no rhyme or reason for the bullying - I have known children who have been bullied for being very attractive/not attractive, too rich/too poor, too academic/not academic.

It is one of the most unpleasant things that can happen to a child at school and can destroy lives. It should be taken far more seriously than it is in most schools.

Dd was accused of bullying someone's sensitive, quiet little snowflake at primary. And over the years I think most of the class was too.

Fact was that pfb was a sly little child, as the natural result of parents that thought the rest of the world should revolve around her. And after she instigated every incident, she ran off crying when other dc naturally retaliated. Various school staff witnessed this, but I have no doubt her parents tell a difficult story about their poor bullied dc, despite the fact she was the bully.

And unless she's changed a lot there will be someone my age still convinced I bullied her at secondary. Admittedly I did go slightly ott, but I bet she's conveniently forgot that what she did to another innocent girl who had pretty tragic circumstances was a hell of a lot worse, and everything I did was deliberate retaliation for someone who couldn't defend themselves.

You're quite right OP -I shouldn't have had a Welsh accent that made me stand out when I started at my home counties primary school. Then I wouldn't have been chased home nightly by a pack of my class mates and been attacked in the playground - usually 3 times a day. Nor would I have had my face smashed down on a coat peg in the cloakroom giving me permanent damage in my eye for "sounding funny". Because it was only my word against all 17 of theirs....

Nope. I think this thread just shows why bullying is such insidious difficult problem to deal with. Nobody is asking children to be best friends. They’re just asking bullies not to be overtly nasty. Which is a big difference.

It’s hard to tackle it though when you have so many parents who are prepared to say ‘Oh well they just don’t like him/her. The bullying is the fault of the bullied child because of their personality’.

The fact is we all go through life meeting people who are not our cup of tea. The decent amongst us will still treat them with civility and respect regardless because they are human and we all have foibles.

None of us will be universally liked by other people either but if we are lucky they will be tolerant and kind and accept nobody is perfect.

I am completely convinced that from wars right down to neighbourhood disputes, most of the problems in the world come from people who believe they have the right to persecute others just on the basis they ‘don’t like them’.

I think people who rush to justify bullying in general by saying it must be the bullied child’s fault are probably pretty unpleasant people themselves.

It was very easy to make me cry (it still is) a number of people at school found this amusing so they set out to find ways to achieve it. My school life was pretty miserable.
Strangely when I got to uni and found my people I made an amazing set of friends, some of whom I still see despite 15 years passing and hundreds of miles separating us. So I’m going to assume I wasn’t bullied at school just because I was so unpleasant no-one wanted to be friends with me

Aibu to think that actual bullying ie purposeful and persistent victimisation is actually pretty rare with young children at least?

At primary school I used to be regularly beaten up to the point of tears by a girl I had no contact with except this bullying.

In secondary school I used to have things thrown at me most nights by the kids on the bus. Didn’t even know their names, I just wanted to read my book.

So YABU in my experience, didn’t feel very rare to me.

I agree. Of course there are times where a child is clearly being picked on for nothing other thsn the bully targets them. But I think people are too quick to cry "it's bullying" these days.

There is a girl in DS's class. DS really cannot stand her, that's up to him tbh. I do feel sorry for her as she isn't well liked, but she doesn't help herself. She winds people up and does things they don't like, like putting glue in the water bottles if she is filling them up amongst other things. Because some of the children don't like her, a couple of parents say she is being bullied, but it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Currently, my friend's child, who has always played with a particular boy, has joined the larger group of children. My friend wasn't happy with her DC 'leaving this boy out' and has complained to the school about it and says they are being mean to this boy (and I can almost hear the word bullying). But I spoke to DD who is part of the group and said the other boy is really irritating and is being mean and bossy and cheats at games, hence the group don't want him playing with them and I think it's fair enough. I've had this child over and he can be very full on. Loud, has to be centre of attention etc. Children don't tend to like this sort of thing when a group plays together nicely but one has to try and ruin the dynamic.

I think being bossy etc can just be down to poor socail skills but the little madam that broke my arm when I was at school was just a nasty little cow, the girl that called me fat & ugly for years was also just a nasty little cow ( I now realise I was neither) and all the school done was find excuses for this behaviour it was all x has a tough home life. Tbh I don’t give a fuck if x did have a bad home life the things she done to me there was no excuse,what about the effect it had on me why didn’t that matter?

Also I think an awful lot of parents don’t want to admit little Jenny or Johnny are nasty little bastards tbh

And I'm not making excuses for bullies. I've told both DCs that it's perfectly ok to not like someone and they won't like everyone they meet, but they can just be civil and they are never to be deliberately mean. DS was mean to the girl he didn't like once and I swiftly nipped it in the bud and came down hard on him. He certainly didn't do it again.

Some people - including children - are plainly just not nice, but sadly most children who behave in bullying ways need more understanding not less, and there's nearly always another side of the story which the teacher won't be able to tell you.

barbie, that’s not necessarily true. Often bullies are the most privileged children rather than the least.

Oh, there are plenty of nasty, sly little liars who enjoy being the kingpins and pulling the strings of all around them and running a little bullying gang. Often just for kicks, sometimes as that's all they know from home environment, sometimes because they're born mean.
The point about bullies is - no-one wants them to be their friends, all unfortunate souls who end up at the wrong end of their schtick want to be just left alone.
Now the parents of said bullies fail to see that and wail that their poor darlings just don't want to play with so and so.... without fliker or understanding that so and so would rather eat their own socks than to paly with their bully of a child.
Your DC doesn't have to play with children thay don't like but they have to be civil to them. It's up to you, dear parent, to ensure this is so.
There will be a time when it's your DC at the receiving end, it always goes around that way.

There are "real" cases of bullying....I saw them myself when I was at school. They were children who were scruffy or didn't have the "right" clothing sadly.

At my DD's school there's a girl who is often excluded. They are all ten years old....the reason she's excluded and I have seen this myself, is that she is mean and sly....but her Mother has no idea of this and maintains she's bullied.

This child deliberately knocked my DD"s model from a shelf and broke it....she eavesdrops on adult conversations, tells tales, pushes and hits.

Her Mum asked DD and another child to a birthday sleepover and DD who is very giving said "I don't really want to go but I will because nobody likes her and she must feel sad"

She went and the girl was AWFUL to DD and the other child....so they chummed up and the girls' Mum then told DD and the other girl off for excluding her DD.

DD says she will never give this girl another chance.

.the reason she's excluded and I have seen this myself, is that she is mean and sly...

And she couldn’t possibly just be reacting to the other children treating her like shit?

Nooooo, she should go into school everyday and be excluded and insulted and just love her classmates.

There's nothing as blind and deaf as the parent of a bully that refuses to see or hear.

This child deliberately knocked my DD"s model from a shelf and broke it....she eavesdrops on adult conversations, tells tales, pushes and hits

How do you know it was deliberate? Maybe the adults should be more careful about talking around children? By ‘telling tales’, I assume you means she complains about being bullied? And why is it fine for your DD to ‘tell tales’ on this girl but you don’t like it when the boot is on the other foot?

I can’t bear parents who complain about ‘telling tales’. Yes, children should talk to adults when they’re worried. And ‘telling tales’ normally means ‘they didn’t keep their gob shut about my own child misbehaving’.

Elton the teacher saw her and reprimanded her.

As for tale telling...things like minor infractions of rules....DD"s school has a rule of no taking toys in.

Sometimes, children will sneak a tiny thing in their bag to show a friend or whatever and this girl will ALWAYS tell on them.

Not things like telling because someone's been mean to her.

Another one was DD's mate had some mints (not allowed) she gave on to DD and one to the girl who tells tales.

Then the tale teller said "Give me all of them or I will tell"

Now tell me that's a likeable child?

Ajas..., I am so glad your DD is not in my DC class. She sounds a delight and you are just the type of parent I've described above.