To think that bullying is rarely as black and white as it’s made out to be in here

[PorkFlute]

For context neither of my children have ever been accused of bullying or subject to bullying so I have no personal bias.
I have worked in a lot of schools though and come across many situations where parents are adamant that their child is being bullied or excluded when what is actually the case is that other children don’t want to play with their child because they are excessively bossy, mean or spoil games. Not playing with someone in this case isn’t exclusion imo and social skills support for the child who is behaving in a way that puts other children off is what is needed. There are also cases where children are ridiculously over sensitive or there is unkindness on both sides.
Obviously bullying does happen and it’s awful but on here people seem to jump straight to the conclusion that bullying is taking place and schools aren’t acting often only on the word and interpretation of the accuser.
Aibu to think that actual bullying ie purposeful and persistent victimisation is actually pretty rare with young children at least?

No rose tinted glasses here. My little boy (teen now) was a very quiet, mature for his age, kind boy. He didn't much like rough and tumble or football or 'boyish' things.

So he was bullied. Called gay. And a cock sucker. Pulled his trousers down in the playground. Stopped him from going to the toilet at break. Things like that.

Teacher said he needed to toughen up.

Not the bully to stop.

The victim to toughen up.

Welcome to real life son. It's shit.

However, we chatted at length, and I came up with some stock responses he could use, that made his bully look like a complete dickhead. It worked.

My ex friend's son was a thug. Not through learned behaviour. Just no discipline. She witnessed her son kick a boy in the throat and STILL did not accept he was a thug

Many posters who have been/or their child has been genuinely bullied are missing the point of this thread.
It isn't about people who have been bullied.
It's about those who cry 'bullying' just because they don't get their own way.

Teatime it is a very difficult one and some posters have alluded to it by saying their child was 'forced' to spend time with someone who was not nice to be around to save this person from being excluded or isolated.

I suppose one example could be a situation where a person is very dominating, only allows people to talk about what they want to talk about or play the games they want to play and becomes upset or angry when people disagree with them, perhaps making unpleasant personal comments or formally complaining that they are being discriminated against because someone has disagreed with them. Would you expect adults to still include this person in their social interactions? Would they think this fair? Certainly we would expect civility of course.

Nice bit of victim blaming there, OP.

However, we chatted at length, and I came up with some stock responses he could use, that made his bully look like a complete dickhead. It worked.

Please, please tell us what those are. My DS is being bullied and we could do with something like this. Thanks.

I think this is a good example of when schools can find some situations an absolute minefield.

To the parents of the dominating child who is now being left out and avoided; their child is being bullied. He comes home every day in tears because nobody will play with him. Maybe another child objected because the teacher asked them to work in pairs that day. If the teacher suggests that maybe some social skills support might be useful, theyre not listening. Theyre victim blaming. They don't like him. Theyre failing in their duty of care. Theyre having formal complaints written to the governors about their failure to act.

Perhaps every other family feels the schools response is fair, but to this family it is disgraceful. I think that this is how some situations are not resolved properly by schools.

Again; i can't stress this enough, i am not suggesting that all or even most children who report bullying are lying on 'bringing it on themselves'. Bullying happens.

If recent threads here are anything to go by, then it's apparent that a lot of adults are all too keen to blame children bullying on whatever it is they've got going on outside of school.

Frankly, I couldn't give a shit what my bullies had "going on" at the time they decided to make my life a misery, make me feel suicidal, self harm, and be doped up to the eyeballs on antidepressants so that I could function. I literally could not give one single, solitary fuck what their excuses might be.

Having been a child myself who was brought up with 'if anyone ever hits you, you hit them back harder', from my concerned dad, i get the default defensive stance from some families. Luckily my dad was correct in his belief that I would never be the bully or aggressor and so thankfully i never had to put his advice into action. It would never have occurred to my dad to teach me not to bully others. His only concern was that i was not targeted.

Unfortunately some parents are wrong about their children and so these children quickly learn that their own version of events is The Version and everybody else is wrong or lying. It is incredibly difficult and at times impossible to get the parents to see things differently. The boat does need to be rocked, but its not an enviable position to be in.

In my experience, most bullies come from homes where they are spoilt and indulged and have no boundaries.

Sorry, posted too soon. What I was also going to say was, I think it's a myth that bullies are bullies because they are bullied at home. I think this type of bully is in the minority.

Main issues were with the name calling. So it would go a bit like this:

Bully: you're gay
DS: you called me that yesterday. And the day before. And the day before. Getting quite bored now.

Bully: cock sucker
DS: haven't heard that one before. Oh wait. I have. (Yawn)

Bully: you're such a dick
DS: and you're really starting to bore me now. Run out of names to call me?

It was all along these lines really. Sarcastic. The responses musn't show defensive (as in, defending what they've called you), musn't show emotion, musn't retaliate to name calling back, but just shows them up to be the dick they are.

All situations are different. Talk to your DD. Find out the main bully.

Just discussing it will help. I remember my little son's face when we walked to school. He was so happy with his little stock replies he'd practiced, he gave me a big hug and said 'thanks mum' because he'd been given the green light to be rude I guess.

But again, this might not work with a child too afraid or it's more serious physical bullying.

Good luck x

Of course real bullying exists. But human relationships are tricky, and no less so when you're 10, so of course a grey area exists too.

My dd is 'friends' with a girl at school, 'Michelle'. My dd does not like Michelle because she is physically aggressive and verbally unkind. Michelle often tries to instigate games such as "lets all tell so-and-so we're meeting at the climbing frame and then we'll all hide and not meet her there". Michelle once felt slighted because a girl in class gave dd a scented eraser, and she demanded (and eventually stole) it for herself because 'it wasn't fair' and she was being left out. Dd is in tears a couple of times a month because of Michelle, and feels that her 'friendship' with Michelle stops her from making friends with the others in the class. She wishes that she didn't have to have anything to do with Michelle. But, of course, no one in the class likes Michelle for all the reasons dd finds her difficult. Michelle is isolated and disliked by the whole class, and has moved school once already because she was bullied. Michelle shouts out when she feels she is being bullied. If dd tries to be in a group with other friends she is accused of leaving Michelle out. The teachers don't have the time or the inclination to unravel it all, so my dd is stuck with Michelle and is often miserable because of poor, bullied, unpopular, unhappy Michelle.

I remembered kids getting bullied at my school, not physically but 1 was the lurgi girl etc which must of been horrible for her. On the other hand I was sometimes teased (as everyone was) for my surname or called lanky but it was light hearted & didn’t bother me at all. I do think some teasing is normal but I’m not sensitive so appreciate some kids might struggle with it. I guess it also depends on the tone & consistency of the teasing.

I also remember a school trip where my friends & I were taken aside by a teacher & told to be careful as our behaviour could be seen as bullying. The issue was we were sharing a room with 2 other girls (who were bffs) & then 5 of us who were v.close. We didn’t exclude them consciously, shared our secret sweet stash with them etc. One of them decided that she didn’t like the dark on the 2nd/3rd day so had got a lamp from the teacher & wanted to leave it on all night. The 5 of us asked/moaned at her to turn it off (we didn’t get a warning/explanation) & she refused. She then went off crying & we were told by the teacher we had to have the light on as she was scared of the dark, which we accepted. We didn’t call her names etc but were told we were ganging up on her & bullying. I still think that was wrong & unfair.

I also agree that a lot of times people are blind to the other side of the story choosing only to believe/listen to one side and not seeing the real problems!

I believed my daughter when she came home crying every single day, her comfindece faded and she lost trust in the adults who are paid to look after her

When she was pinned down and had grass stuffed in her tehroat - the dinner lady said she was telling tales - how is this not bullying? How was this her fault? Not a one off incident either

As an ex-teacher and parent:

There is definitely such a thing as black and white bullying, I have seen it in school myself. There are also many nearly black and white situations where the victim has retaliated understandably.

I am about the social skills stuff because we should be teaching dc social skills and few dc have particularly great social skills because they are children. Dd1's social skills I can clearly see are less developed than mine but that is because she is 8 years old and I am middle aged. Interestingly some adults have shit social skills too which is often why they don't see the issue with bullying/ encourage bullying.

But sometimes it isn't that clear cut. As parents we only ever hear half the story and some people seem unable to see this. My dd was accused of bullying by another parent, I went to school several times to ensure I had the whole story because I absolutely would not have that, school said not. If anything the other child was bullying her I think. Some DC do wander into secondary school tell the 'hard' girls that their brother is going to beat them up on the way home and then claim they are being 'bullied' when it rather predictably backfires. And yes as a teacher I saw that one happen as well.

Maybe in primary school a bit of it may come down to disagreements and kids not wanting to play with each other. But secondary school bullying is a whole different ball game and frequently is out and out bullying - threats, aggressiveness, name calling, social media targeting. They are old enough to know better but do it anyway.

Teatime he is doing a lot better now thank you. I’m keeping a close eye on it as are the school. The parents of the one of the bullies should take a lot of the blame - they deny it’s happening and they haven’t given him good social skills. Good luck with your daughter, keep a record of everything and keep pushing.

Arethere - i’m not missing the point of the thread. The OP said she believed ‘true’ bullying is rare -it isn’t

Victim Blaming is a very ignorant saying as often it isnt clear who is the real victim.Its meaningless.
I agree OP bullying is often not a black and white. I lnow a few childten who have claimed to be bullied and the are just good at winding others up to the point of retaliation and come of worse, then go crying to teacher etc .
For example a boy had a wooden dagger thing, cornered another a boy in a corner and kept prodding him with it. Other boy couldnt get away and grabbed dagger from him to stop him and caught his hand . Boy screamed and screamed and had other boy got in trouble. As other had been seriously ill he would get everyones attention. He was always doing things like that and was very manipulative and his mum said he was being bullied.
Ive known a few kids like this, unfortunately.
My ds was bullied by his friends when he started secondary. The had gone from little big fish in little ponds to minnows in big lakes and were using ds to fight their way to the top and it was awful at the time. But they grew up and are friends again

Dd knew what happened to ds and armoured herself when she started. She also has a razer sharp wit and anyone who tried to verbally abuse her would always come off worse.
My poor dh got very badly bullied at school because he as and it has left very bad mental scars.

My ds little for his age but tough gets a handful of snow down his back. Turns round and punches the older bigger boy.

Older, bigger boy accuses ds of bullying him.

Other mothers disapproved of me for laughing.

I think that primary school isn’t always black and white and often kids who fall out make friends a week later but I think like another poster when it gets to secondary school I think it is black and white.

I was bullied in both primary and secondary, I moved around a lot but at one point I was living in an area where most of the kids at the primary school were from well off families and I was from a dysfunctional, poor and scruffy family. I was quiet barely said boo to a goose but the majority of the class bullied me because I was different, poor and I didn’t fit in and so I did cry and I did spend most of my break in the classroom helping the teacher. I wonder if the parents of these kids thought that I was a sly and manipulative child who told tales and was bringing it on herself.

At one point three lads were punished in the morning, they left me alone for the rest of the day then the next day they were back at it. I think there parents probably backed them up.