To think that bullying is rarely as black and white as it’s made out to be in here

[PorkFlute]

For context neither of my children have ever been accused of bullying or subject to bullying so I have no personal bias.
I have worked in a lot of schools though and come across many situations where parents are adamant that their child is being bullied or excluded when what is actually the case is that other children don’t want to play with their child because they are excessively bossy, mean or spoil games. Not playing with someone in this case isn’t exclusion imo and social skills support for the child who is behaving in a way that puts other children off is what is needed. There are also cases where children are ridiculously over sensitive or there is unkindness on both sides.
Obviously bullying does happen and it’s awful but on here people seem to jump straight to the conclusion that bullying is taking place and schools aren’t acting often only on the word and interpretation of the accuser.
Aibu to think that actual bullying ie purposeful and persistent victimisation is actually pretty rare with young children at least?

My dd was subjected to straightforward good old fashioned bullying.
This included ostracisation, verbal abuse, physical assaults and social media bullying.
I took her from school in the end.
To me what is wrong is that many schools don't approach the problem using all the things we have learnt about behaviour etc over the years.
Our school just ploughed on with punitive measures or victim blaming which of course was useless.
I offered to pay a mediator or similar but was looked at as if I had two heads.
I sent them the resource pack for anti bullying week which was ignored.
Dd is now in college has lots of friends and a great social life so I know it was the school which had a problem.

stayandfight

That illustrates the point im making. Often the "victims" of bullying are just the aggressor who have come off worse, but listen to their mums in the playground and they are poor little things who are badly bullied..

I do know there are some nasty real bullies who just pick on people for the fun of it and come across one or two but in most cases it is not as simple as pure bullying

bruffin i just wish I'd been there to see it.

The other boy was a head taller than my ds, but ds made his nose bleed.

So my dinky little ds was called a bully and I was one of 'those' parents.

But bullies are actually more likely to be bullied anyway.

But bullying is a sustained ongoing campaign not a one off bad day/ punch.

There was a girl I went to school with. She would regularly be sent on a task so the teacher could give us a telling off for 'bullying' her as her parents complained many times.

She was a horrible girl - I have known her since I was 3. These 'telling offs' carried on into secondary school.

If you spent any time with her she would just be vile to you. I see now a lot of this behaviour came from her parents, they told her how amazing she was and how awful we were and she just passed that on.

We used to make an effort and invite her to town with us (I should point out we were not the popular kids by any long shot) and she would just be horrible all day and say nasty personal things.

I don't think it's clear cut. I would actually say she was the bully but had aggressive parents.

Teateaandmoretea I think the point is that you and I think bullying is a sustained attack, but I have seen comments on other threads along the lines of " the victim decides if it was bullying".

How naive.

There are an awful lot of kids who enjoy winding other kids up. Who enjoy upsetting other kids. They don't even really see it as 'upsetting' other kids some of the time: they simply have no empathy and enjoy getting the reaction. The rest of the time they do know they're upsetting other kids - and they enjoy having that power. They will particularly target those who don't quite fit in already. That turns into a loop as the outsider becomes ever more isolated. That does not make it the fault of those who don't fit in.

A heck of a lot of adults are like that too.

Are you going to tell the family of that young woman in Nottingham that it was all her own fault?

Gosh TemporarySign where does anybody say it is the victims fault?

No one has said that about sustained bullying. No one.

What is being said is at the lower end of the spectrum and especially at primary school it is not always clear cut, as in the example I gave.

Sometimes it's not as black and white as what people think and I say that as a mum who's children have been bullied and 1 in primary was accused of being a bully.

I remember ds being six, he was diagnosed with adhd and really did struggle in primary, he hated people in his personal space but would tolerate people bumping into him etc, never reacted to normal stuff etc. This one boy knew this and would deliberately wind up ds and grab him and not let go, push him and would scream loudly in his his face and laugh. Ds bit him on the arm..hard..Ds was then accused of bullying by the other mum and the schools reaction oh dear little johnny would never do something like that even though other kids witnessed it.

However dd1 was bullied in the same school by one girl who was a nasty little madam. I get that she had a horrible homelife but it still didn't stop her from pushing my daughters face into the dirt and trying to strangle her, she broke dds belongings, called her names, pushed down the stairs..They were 5. Dd was quiet but popular and this other girl didn't like it. Dd really tried to be friends with her at first but avoided her when she could in the end.

I was bullied in school for being a bit weird and odd, I was quiet but had some friends, but the other kids who also knew my crappy family circ used this against me..perhaps it was my fault for having no social skills.

temporary I think you are missing the point. I have no doubt that what that young lady went through was awful as many others do.

If you turn it on its head though using the same word to describe a childhood spat or stays ds punching someone in retaliation actually detracts from how awful real bullying is and is damaging for real victims.

There are lots of nasty adults around, many of them are parents.
It's not hard to see how the narrow
mindedness of these adults transfers to the children.
Many adults are mean spiteful and anti social. Their dc take their lead.
Sometimes children, for legitimate reasons, prefer one child to another, that's not bullying, that's life!
Not everyone likes everyone, fact.
There are some people who I have no desire to socialise with.
That does not make me a bully.
However if you don't like soneone stay away from them, don't start name calling, hitting or whatever.

Well my son has been a victim of "black and white" bullying at infant school.
It started in reception year. This one particular kid liked finding someone to go and punch, kick, throw stuff at etc. He decided my son would make a good victim as he cries easily.
School have been brilliant, but at the end of the day, there's just something about this kid that makes him violent. I have been assured by teachers and lunchtime support staff that my son has done nothing to provoke this.
They're year 2. It has quietened down, but we did have one incident where my son was chased and then repeatedly punched in the head. Again, entirely unprovoked, there were witnesses.
I don't know what this kids problem is. I've got to the point where I just don't care.

Nobody is saying that victims of bullying bring it on themselves.

But it's also not helpful to have a blanket approach that every child who SAYS they are being bullied, is being bullied. Taking a little time to investigate what has gone on properly and what led to the incident should reduce occasions where children who are themselves being horrible to others are treated like the victim, and the real victims or innocent parties are labelled and punished.

In many cases it will be easy to see and to demonstrate who is the aggressor/ victim/ bystander. In other cases it will not be so obvious. But most parents of bullies will not want to hear that their child is being horrible to others and this will be exacerbated if they are making allegations against others which the parents feel are being ignored.

I'm also amazed that some adults don't realise that if you instigate a situation in whatever way, then it is entirely your fault when the victim retaliates.
I've heard pathetic e buses over the years,
Well hes I know my dc hit your child and said they are a fat slag with poor parents, but really they shouldn't be excluding them from their party, that's not fair!
My dc have always been told if someone starts on you , you have my permission to finish it if that is the best option.
If possible walk away if not make sure they never start on you again.

There are an awful lot of kids who enjoy winding other kids up. Who enjoy upsetting other kids. They don't even really see it as 'upsetting' other kids some of the time: they simply have no empathy and enjoy getting the reaction. The rest of the time they do know they're upsetting other kids - and they enjoy having that power. They will particularly target those who don't quite fit in already. That turns into a loop as the outsider becomes ever more isolated. That does not make it the fault of those who don't fit in.

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This million times over. For the unpteenth time, not playing with someone is OK< making others not want to play with that person is bullying. Parents must teach their children to be civil to all.

But stayandfight, sorry if i have missed some other posts but without context its difficult for impartial people to see who is in the wrong.

In one scenario, the tall boy has been tormenting and teasing your son for some time. The snow down his back was the last straw and your son hit him.

In another scenario the tall boy has never done anything unpleasant to your son before and the snow down the back was a poorly judged prank. Your son punches him in the face in response.

In the second scenario your son would have acted disproportionately and would certainly be in the wrong. The tall boy being taller than your son, without other provocation doesn't deserve a burst nose.

My DS is scared of a boy at his school. I know the boy and his parents and I dont actually think he’s particularly nasty. He’s big and loud and over the top boisterous as well as a bit dominant but whatever the truth my son is very very anxious about him. DS definitely FEELS bullied
I’ve spoken to the teacher and also The Head in a low key “keep an eye on it” kind of way and their solution seems to be to try and show DS that this boy actually isn’t too bad. They are paired up at every opportunity and placed in the same group for activities
It’s not working and DS hates it

I don't think that anyone has said that real bullying didn't exist. Of course it does and is awful, it's just that some bullying is far more complicated and their own behaviour may well be contributing to the situation. This does need dealing with but the solution isn't always clear cut. And some parents find it impossible to believe that their child is anything but perfect.
To the people sharing their own bullying stories, please don't feel your feelings are being invalidated on here. Please don't get defensive. Nobody has said you personally have contributed to your own situation, just that in some scenarios children do. And then it becomes chicken and egg and becomes very difficult to untangle.

Some kids are mean through and through and will always find some one to bully, some kids are just followers, some kids have the mentality it is bully or be bullied so they side with the bully in fear of losing their place in their friendship group/social standing. The latter groups need educating as they aren't bad kids at heart. It's a difficult and very entangled subject. Every single case is individual. Some clear cut bullying and other not so clear cut.

For the unpteenth time, not playing with someone is OK< making others not want to play with that person is bullying. Parents must teach their children to be civil to all

I agree

I agreed with EltonJohnsSyrup. My experience of bullying, and what I see today, is it is largely carried out by popular children who are able to control their classmates to collude or observe and can manipulate adults around them to dismiss or blame it on the victim.

I was bullied at school because I had eczema. My friend was bullied because she was a little bit immature and wanted to play pretend a bit longer than anyone else. Neither of us was malicious or forced ourselves into over people's social groups, we were shy and pleasant and kept to ourselves and our small friendship groups. Still the bullied sought us out.
In secondary school it was worse, I was bullied quite mercilessly by my next door neighbour (so I couldn't even get away from her after school). The teachers were all too ready to believe the worst of my friends and I when we were falsely accused of making malicious phone calls, while fawning over the bullies and constantly trying to befriend them as they were the popular group, barely punishing them when they beat up my friend outside school and were witnessed and reported by members of the public.

Fair enough I didn't fight back like my mum used to, which conversely ended up with the bully "respecting" her. Why should I have to resort to violence, to copying them? Maybe I'm a "snowflake" as a parent maliciously stated about a child upthread.
Lots of reasons are trotted out for children being victims of bullies, but really there is only one reason and that is that they had the misfortune to go to school with a bully. Bullies are rarely asked to explain why they bully, they are conspicuously quiet about it as they get older. They are often called clever, but they are only skilled at manipulating people, a properly developed mind would not find pleasure in causing cruelty to others.

MotherOfWurzel I actually think you second scenario was a bit more like it. DS probably shouldn't have punch him quiet as hard. However, the other lad was a year above him, nearly 18 months older and a lot bigger. If DS had cried would he have been the victim?

The situation resolved itself nicely the other boy stayed away from ds, ds got a reputation for being tough and was never bullied by anyone.

I don't think anyone was bullied in that scenario and to say otherwise is just silly.

YABU.
Bullying does happen, it certainly did in every school i attended until I got to the point where I felt like I just had to hit people who wouldnt leave me the fuck alone.
your initial post has really hit a nerve. I wasnt a bossy child, I wasnt spoilt, I wasnt nasty. I was and always have been someone who tends to go out of my way to be inoffensive.

The problem whilst I was at school. I was smelly, I was unkempt, I didnt have nice, or fashionable clothes. It wasnt hard for people to find something to take the piss out of. Whether it was the boys clothes that were far too big, or too small, or the trainers that I wore to school with holes in the toes, or the fact that my clothes would be washed monthly, or that I couldnt do PE because I didnt have a PE kit. or that i smelt like a chip pan, beef, BO, a pub or dog.

I was hit time and time again whilst at school. When my parents decided it was time to move house, the cycle started again.

Every day I hoped that the various groups would just not notice I was there in the classroom, but that never happened. It didnt matter what it was, non uniform day, if I didnt have money- which my mum refused flatly to pay by the way. It was noticed and people were horrible. If i said non uniform day was cancelled and went in to school in my uniform kids were still horrible. If i managed to get my hands on sweets, I would try to give them to people so maybe they would like me, often people didnt accept sweets because I had touched them.

The really sad thing is there was no one who could ever really be my friend, if someone spoke to me someone else would come up and ask why they were speaking to me.

I can understand that this wont be the case for every child who says they are bullied, but you know, it does happen. Some children are victims and it will happen to these children time and time again. instead of believing that it doesnt happen, bring your children up to be kind to others.

I really suffered as a child at the hands of bullies. No one ever took the time to look and see there was something seriously wrong at home, not the kids in my classes, not even the teachers.

by 12-13 Id had enough of people constantly picking at me and hitting me, then it was easy for the teachers to blame their dislike of me on my attitude, and they also said thats why the other children didnt like me despite the fact that the bullying had been worse before I started answering and hitting back.

I think those who have agreed that bullying isnt such a big thing are very lucky to have not had their lives affected by it, but please dont say it doesnt happen. it does and it did to me and actually what it did was cement every time I was told that I was worthless and that I wasnt a nice person at home by my abusive parents was right. I didnt feel safe until I was 17 years old. I am now 27 and my confidence is absolutely shot because of a mixture of the bullying and abuse at home.

If I didnt feel like people hated me so much at school because of my appearance and smell, I probably would have been able to open up to someone, and I would have been in care by the time i was 8 years old but because of bullying I felt like it was MY fault.

I dont agree with Eltonjohnsyrup at all. I dont agree that most bullies are privileged, thats far too simplistic.

Yes, YABU. Bullying happens way too often. Sometimes things that are not bullying might get labelled as bullying but I think more often bullying is ignored or explained away.

Kids need to be taught to interact well together. It's a socialization that tajesva being who thinks the universe revolves around them (a baby) and shows them how they connect to others safely and fairly.

I would say it is the main role family and school play.