To think that bullying is rarely as black and white as it’s made out to be in here

[PorkFlute]

For context neither of my children have ever been accused of bullying or subject to bullying so I have no personal bias.
I have worked in a lot of schools though and come across many situations where parents are adamant that their child is being bullied or excluded when what is actually the case is that other children don’t want to play with their child because they are excessively bossy, mean or spoil games. Not playing with someone in this case isn’t exclusion imo and social skills support for the child who is behaving in a way that puts other children off is what is needed. There are also cases where children are ridiculously over sensitive or there is unkindness on both sides.
Obviously bullying does happen and it’s awful but on here people seem to jump straight to the conclusion that bullying is taking place and schools aren’t acting often only on the word and interpretation of the accuser.
Aibu to think that actual bullying ie purposeful and persistent victimisation is actually pretty rare with young children at least?

Parents often tend to see things from their own child's point of view but that it natural and judgement is clouded by your fierce instinct to protect your child. Makes it hard to deal with in school though!

I have often thought that if some parents worked as hard on making sure that their child was not a bully, rather than avoiding being bullied, we might have fewer problems. A lot of focus is on reporting and telling, which is correct but perhaps not enough on how you should behave towards others.

Well do you keep records of all the incidents? Do you listen to both sides? Do you get to the bottom of it or make snap decisions?

The truth is kids DO bully and TEACHERS just make it worse by not effectively dealing with the issues (they don't even get training and pay lip service to some crap anti bully policy)

Even if a child is unlikeable - there is no need for unkindness -

As someone who was badly bullied at school I can assure you it was definitely black and white in my case

Let me guess. You're a teacher right?

From the "There's no bullying in my school" school of thought 🤔

Elton it's not clear cut, one way or the other. As I mentioned up thread I did go a bit ott in my retribution. But in all honesty I thought she was a bit feeble to get upset, I didn't see it as my problem she couldn't handle something I could have taken in my stride before primary age. If she had the luxury of running home to loving, normal parents and crying about a taste of her own medicine then imo (as a teen) she had fuck all to cry about. Rather I despised her more for it, she couldn't even deal with the same shit she did to a vulnerable girl. I thought she, and about 90% of the population needed to get a grip about what was hurtful.

Of course some dc are just bullies with no justification or extenuating circumstances.

But I think parents of both some genuine bullies, and some parents of dc who claim to be bullied can be equally blind at times to their own dcs behaviour. Just like it's generally acknowledged that 'spirited' means badly behaved, on mn 'sensitive' seems to be used by some to mean 'my dc can't handle not getting their own way'

I don't think any of the genuine cases of bullying are helped by having dc encouraged to cry bully when it isn't at all.

Social skills help? I really don't feel like there'd be enough support in the world for some of the kids I saw get it worst. None of them were bad, or unpleasant or sly or nasty etc etc, just a little different. And I don't know why the kids that tormented them ENDLESSLY never got bored.

Twice I saw bullied kids confront their bullies as late teenager/early adults. One, a boy, had clearly grown up, was remorseful and humbled at his victims bravery.

The other, a girl, laughed in her victims face with the attitude of "you were well weird, totally fair game, and you're still weird now, so it's not my fault if you get upset - you being weird started it"... so saying it's the victims fault...

There are couple in DD class; one is the jock without an ounce of imagination who physically pushes others around and is just a nasty, loud, unpleasant attention seeker. Mother thinks sun shines out of his dear rear end of course. But the worst one is a sly and awfully manipulative 'lad', a one-trick pony who pulls the strings and has made lives miserable for several children. School is dealing with it but I do feel for the children involved.
Mother kisses ground he walks on.
It's a well known school . Happens everywhere.

If a child is unhappy because she is being excluded, made fun of or physically hurt, even in small doses, it is bullying. Not oh, children will be children, learn to be resilient etc. Learn to be fucking civil is my answer to that, Thehogfather.

wake so why in the case of the sly lad in your dd's class is he the bully and the others his victims, but in ajas case her dd and the others are all bullies and the other girl the victim?

And to offer some balance, I think her dd was very thoughtful to go to the sleepover. Even if she isn't willing to be treated badly by the other girl as some people seem to think she should be.

It suits busy schools with overworked teachers to believe that bullying is overhyped. Same goes with stealing and other anti-social behavior.

They'd rather label the victim "sensitive" in the case of bullying. When they've had their stuff stolen, they'd rather say that they shouldn't have left their blazer/wallet/watch in the changing room.

Victim blaming basically.

Mn is a clear example though. In the short space of time this thread has been live, we've had anecdotes from people who were bullied or have been on the recieving end of bad behaviour. Logic suggests that there should be equal or perhaps a greater number of people saying 'yes, i was a bully' or 'my child is is a bully'.

But obviously that doesn't happen, maybe because people think other children and/or teachers make lies up about their child, or hate their child. In some cases the percieved victim may not have been a victim in the way they described, and may have manipulated a situation in their favour to make others look bad and gain sympathy for themselves.

Bullying is awful and does happen. No doubt about it. But while some people in some situations are reluctant to consider that they may not have the correct facts, it will remain a serious problem.

I have often thought that if some parents worked as hard on making sure that their child was not a bully, rather than avoiding being bullied

Actually most parents raise their kids to be nice kind and thoughtful - unfortunately the 'bullies' never get this input and bulldoze their way through school enjoying the power game -

Usually end up friendless in secondary school as others refuse to put up with their crap - reap what you sow

neither of my children have ever been accused of bullying or subject to bullying so I have no personal bias and no idea either

Wait until your child is on the receiving end then see how you feel.

Why the fuck do schools think they can interfere in people's lives like that? Making nice children play with the bullies and the victim be friends with the tormentor?

Well of course it is wake, who said otherwise? It just simply isn't bullying because two dc have a minor disagreement and one runs off crying.

My friends ds intervened with another teen with sn who regularly got hit/ excluded/ insulted up to that point. But the real victim didn't go and tell, and instead was viewed as the bully after he hit one shit back who immediately ran off to tell.

To go to a sleepover out of charity and then 'chum up' with the other guest sounds rather nasty to me, we don't know whet the girl in question did, whatever she did, she didn't deserve being left out in her own sleepover.
The sly one in DD class is common knowledge, many parents have complained and school is taking it seriously.

Greentulips i don't for a moment doubt this. Which is why i said 'some parents'.

Well there were definitely bullies when I was at school. Horrible kids that made other kids lives miserable for no reason other than they could. It wasn't rare.

I have a 9 year old daughter. Bullying happens at her school as well. In her class alone I would call 4 children bullies. They pick on most of the other kids at times. They pick on the same few kids daily. It's not rare.

The only thing I am aware of now, that I wasn't when I was a child is that the bullies at my daughters school have issues at home. Neglected kids, family issues, etc.

I think some people on MN find it difficult to accept that some some children can just be horrible and bullies. Who grow up to be horrible adults who bully. There's always someone here jumping to the defense of the poor wee excluded bully.

I absolutely agree with you op.
I am so cross on my lovely dds and her friends behalf that she is forced to play with a child who ruins their game every time, because if they don't, said bossy child runs off their dinner ladies saying 'they won't let me play.'
Why do we force children to play with those they don't like? As adults we don't.

Also I hate the way after bullying incidents, the victim is asked to make friends with the bully and shake hands. I have told both my kids they don't have to and told the teacher the same and if they have a problem with it then they can contact me.

I think bullying can be black and white sometimes children and adults for that matter pick on people I know I have seen it! Sometimes it's is a lot more complex I know.

I do agree though that the term bullying is used incorrectly a lot when children/adults don't get on! And don't want to play/socialise together! That's not always bullying in my experience! I also agree that a lot of times people are blind to the other side of the story choosing only to believe/listen to one side and not seeing the real problems! It's a very hard one and yes current strategies to solve these issues seem very unfair to me!

Yes it’s my son’s poor social skills that caused a group of children to try to put him in the bin, push him into another child so that he would be hit and then get someone to run up and hit him in the face whilst he was playing with another group of children.

School took it seriously, glad you weren’t working there.