Who is being unreasonable - joint finances

[namechange59295]

Namechanged for this but regular poster.

Please help me work out whether I am being unreasonable, or whether my husband is being unreasonable (I think he is, obviously!).

I'll try to make his as succinct as possible. Been with my DH for 8 years, married for 18 months, DS1 is 7.5 months. DH bought the house we live in when we had been together for 2 years, large cash deposit, small mortgage. I moved in and paid a reduced rent until the mortgage was cleared (approx. 3 years). I have then lived there for free ever since. The justification for this which we both agreed to was that I had to move around an hour from my friends, family and work to allow him to continue to run his business, which would obviously benefit us both in the future. His friends, family and hobbies are on his doorstep (literally, we can see his parents house and the rugby field from our windows!). I hate the town we live in, but we plan to move out of town in the next couple of years and as I have made lots of friends in the wider area I am happy with this prospect, although ultimately I would prefer to move back to where I grew up and where my family are.

So, mortgage is paid off and we both have significant savings, however he has about 3 times what I have. I believe his ability to save has been partly facilitated by me because by moving to his area I have allowed our relationship to continue and him to pursue his professional desires. Of course he has also saved very hard and worked very hard for that money. I have explained this part of our financial situation not to be goady, but I don't want to drip feed and I do think this is relevant to my AIBU.

Since moving in together we have paid into a joint account for food, bills, council tax etc etc. Basically everything that's needed to keep the house running. I have just stopped receiving maternity pay but have been paying in as normal until now. Agreement is that I will stay at home with DS1 because my commute to work means I would work for about £25 per day once we have paid for childcare. We have always been of the understanding that we would both prefer for me to be at home with the children for a certain amount of time whilst they are young and that was a large part of the reason we have settled in DH's area. All discussed and agreed years ago.

I do all of the housework, so cooking, cleaning, washing, ironing, food shopping, bins, recycling, night feeds etc. plus all those other little things like buying birthday presents, cards etc. He does bath and bed with DS 5 nights a week. He plays rugby twice a week and all day on a Saturday, with the occasional night out afterwards (not regular, say once every 2 months or so). He has a lie in at the weekend on both days while I get up with DS.

I have always said that I would prefer our savings to be held jointly, with a direct debit into an account for household stuff and then an equal allowance each for spending money. He has always said that he will just top up our existing joint account as needed. We are both relatively good with money so whilst I'm not really comfortable with this, in theory it should work as long as we are both reasonable.

With regards to our savings, we are both saving for a property investment, so in that sense our intentions for the savings are mutual. He obviously has a great deal more than I do at present, but my parents will be giving us a significant (approx £175k) sum to purchase said property when we find it so he will then benefit from my/their investment. Basically what I am trying to say is that we are on a fairly level playing field once all is taken into consideration.

Fast forward to today. We are looking after his parents dog for a few days while they are away. I took her for a run on the beach this morning and it was lovely down there so I bought a coffee in the cafe and sat outside for a bit longer. The coffee cost £1.50. DH has told me that I should take my own coffee in a flask because buying a coffee out is a waste of money. He says that if I was out for a walk with a friend and we went into the coffee shop that's fine because it's being sociable. I think that considering he disappears for 2 evenings a week plus most of Saturday week in week out (and there is a cost of say £20 a week for this) I should be allowed to buy a bloody coffee every now and then if I want one! I'm not one of these people who walks around with a costa permanently attached to my hand, I hardly ever buy drinks or food out. My social commitments are a buggy fitness group once or twice a week (£4 a time), baby sensory (£5 a week) and slimming world (£5 a week). I then go for a walk with a group of mums once a week and we have a coffee afterwards. This mornings coffee doesn't usually happen, it's only because I was down there with his parents dog and I just fancied a coffee because it was really nice there today. He is saying that if I had been with someone else it would have been fine because it's being sociable. I argued that if his hobby was cycling or running which he might do by himself I would still be happy for him to pursue it, it just so happens that he plays rugby and that is a team sport.

This next bit is the important bit.

He then said that he is spending his money when he does things, and I am spending our money. My argument is that all of the money is our money, including he money that my parents have promised me for the property purchase** whenever that happens.

I think this statement completely summarises his attitude towards me being a stay at home mum and whilst he is happy for me to do so, he is going to want me to account for every last penny I spend because as far as he is concerned, I am not the one who went out and earned it. I also think that this shows he does not value anything I do in the home and whilst I am happy to do it and appreciate that I am fortunate to be able to stay at home, I do not think that attitude is fair.

Well done if you are still reading - I am happy to be told I am unreasonable if I am and in which case I need to start grovelling after the argument we've just had. If I am not being unreasonable and he is being financially controlling, then I am just disappointed in myself for being so stupid as to think we were on the same wavelength.

Thank you.

TBH it all sounds very messy and difficult.

I think you both need to see a financial adviser, separately!

If it was me I think I would be making sure the savings that you have separately are equal. I would then have a joint account that all bills/child costs/general life stuff comes out of. In that account I would expect your DH to put in what would be half. I would then work out how much your share would be taking into account any benefits you receive. I would expect him to put in your share minus any benefits/outside money you earn. (As you have agreed to be a SAHP, he pays your ‘wage’ for want of a better word)

I would then work out how much he has left over and split it 50/50. This money goes into a separate account you each have in just your names.

You then spend your money however you choose.

Any buying of property should be 50/50. If 50/50 is impossible then you either buy a cheaper place you can both afford or each buy an investment property/shares separately and keep all money from these separately.

You can obviously treat each other or help each other out occasionally but with a partner that has proved to be difficult with money everything needs to be completely transparent and fair.

About the lay ins and childcare, I think you need to work out your working hours during the day and work until you both have done the same hours, any childcare/housework/etc after you have done your hours become joint chores and you split them equally.

TBH this set up really sucks the joy out of life but with your DH behaving the way he is I really can’t see any other option.

I am a bit wary about this joint money going forward. It smacks a bit of now I know you are not happy about this I will change from now but of course there is no guarantee he will not be hiding money. Company directors paid mainly in dividends ( tax dodgers) can award themselves what they want. Going forward he may choose not to take the usual dividends from the company and his saving rate will suddenly reduce because he will have to share it with you. If he is happy with joint savings why does it have to be going forward? You have been together a long time and the savings were accrued while you were together.

If you moved for his job does that mean you will now have a large commute if you return to work unless you purchase somewhere near your parents? This man is living a single life with you making all the concessions and he gets to play the big earner with you dependent on him for financial crumbs. Is he a good dad?

Mortgage free house will be retained and rented out. Idea is that the rent will pay the mortgage for the new house, DH's earnings will go directly into our new joint savings account and existing joint current account. New house will be in both of our names with the appropriate arrangement to protect my parent's investment. Mortgage will be in both of our names. Rental payments will be enough to cover mortgage payments with enough left over to allow for void periods, repairs etc.

For context, he paid for this house with a large cash deposit and small mortgage which was paid off within about 3 years (I think by 2015). Over these 3 years I would have paid in £9,000 (£3,000 per year for 3 years). House is worth about £200k - £220k. Will be easy to rent out so no problems there.

He has agreed that he was wrong to pull me up of over the coffee, that I am good with money and he has no issues in that respect.

The £85k and £30k were largely saved up pre maternity. I would still prefer to limp these together, take out the 2 ISAs at £20k each and then everything will be exactly equal. He says that the £85k and the £30k are going into the new house anyway, then going forwards there will only be joint savings.

If on the assumption that he is trustworthy and not out for himself, is this acceptable?

'If on the assumption that he is trustworthy and not out for himself, is this acceptable?'

No, because it's not what you asked. You're already being expected to capitulate. This is how it's always going to be because it's always what you've done from the sounds of it. He still wants it all his way - with the little wifey at home making things easy and you playing the grateful party. If it's not a coffee it will be something else.

OP I read this earlier but had nothing to add to others' comments. I think your updates are mildly encouraging, it's possible that he's just been really ignorant and selfish and is finally starting to see things from your perspective . Or he's faking. But's it's really hard for us to judge that, not knowing either of you.

FWIW, we're married, I've been SAHM, WOHM, WFHM in various guises. We've had money from parents one side, grandparents both sides (not in the quantities here but hey) and DCs. It's now pretty complex if we had to 'unpick' who put what in. But I'm not too bothered because I've always felt things are considered joint. We see IFAs together, we took out insurance for me when I stopped work because DH calculated it would cost him about £50k pa to replace me if I died / was incapacitated and he continued to work, whereas his death in service benefit meant I'd be OK because the mortgage could be paid off and I'd be able to work enough to cover the rest. We've paid into a pension for me when we've had spare cash, because I won't have had the continuous occupational pension from an employer.

If your DH's attitude has changed, I think you could make this work. If it hasn't, tying down the numbers today isn't necessarily going to be water tight for the future. It's so much down to how you see one another and your finances are a symptom of that, not a cause.

I wish you well though. And hope that IFA meetings etc are a chance for you to work out which it is for you.

@expatinscotland - even though I now technically own 50% of the £200k property we live in that I only contributed £9k to?

He said if I'm not comfortable in investing the full £175k I can contribute some or none of it. If I'm worried about things being equal I can contribute £85k only if I want to. It obviously just means the move is a lot further off. (Obviously I mean the theoretical move because at the moment it's not happening!).

Not defending him at all, just trying to pre-empt different scenarios!

This is a man who doesn't even afford you a lie-in, name, think about that. It's lovely to cling to the fantasy of the SAHM, but you're sacrificing your entire financial independence and you will impact your future earning potential by doing this with someone who doesn't even allow you a lie-in.

@ThisIsAStory thank you, and I entirely agree with you. It is not about who pays in what and who owns what and who spent what, it is about how you view each other. I am totally on your wavelength with regards to this and before this recent revelation, as far as I was concerned what's mine is his and vice versa. Thanks to the wise mumsnetters here we've drilled down into the details so that i can protect myself financially if I do decide to go forwards with this one day, but you are totally right when you say that it's how you view each other and your commitment to one another as a married couple.

I don't know how the law is on your present marital home. However, if the house is in his name and he had it before marriage it will probably not be an marital assets as it was accrued in marriage and no longer a marital home. Please get this checked. I know someone who signed a property over to their son and he married a woman, she had no claim on the house as it was his before marriage.

@Neweternal yes I can see what you are saying - if we move the current house is no longer the marital home. Thanks, I'll get that checked.

Apparently the marital home is legally a joint asset, regardless of whether it was acquired before or after marriage. So, be careful with the renting out scenario, OP, your current house would no longer be your marital home and so you could possibly not be entitled to half of it if you divorced. He's a clever bugger, isn't he? Why not just sell it to fund the next property?

I think you're thinking too far ahead. Tell him the new house isn't part of the current discussion. The combining of savings and your return to work/ division of household labour are what you need to concentrate on. He's trying to muddy the waters with too many issues.

I'd tell him that either the savings become joint or he tops you off so you each have the same amount.

Division of labour and child related costs absolutely 50/50. The amount each earns is not relevant to the amount duties. Just because someone earns less it doesn't mean that their TIME is less valuable. And just because someone earns more it doesn't mean they 'deserve' more leisure time.

When our current house no longer becomes the marital home, the £85k will be gone (put into the new marital home that I have invested £175k plus my £30k into on the basis that our respective investments have been properly documented and provided for).

The rent from the rental house, which was majority paid for by him before we married, will be paying if the mortgage of the new house.

Things I would look at:
1- protect your parents investment with a charge or whatever. Ensure whatever else you put in he at least matches, and make sure it's jointly owned.
2- go back to work even if it is 1 day a week. Keep your hand in. Do not let your skills die even for a short while.
3 get a pension provision at least equivalent to what you would have if you worked full-time.
4 ensure he has life insurance so you would not be left in a mess - and a will which covers you and Ds/future dc
5 have a current account adequately funded for coffees without questions. Perhaps a £100 a month or so taken out in cash?
6 Ensure his business liabilities are covered. You don't want to loose your home if his business goes bust.

Did you know you can get his business accounts from the companies house website. That will give you/your own accountant info on what he is earning.

The resistance he is showing regarding merging your respective savings is odd for me. We share all finances- and have money in investments - sometimes one of us has more, sometimes the other - but it's separated for tax purposes and is all "ours". My husband has received more inheritances than me at this point, but that will change later. It's swings and roundabouts for us.

Combining your savings needs to be done to test your DH. Even if all that money will eventually got to House X, you can turn that around and say therefore it doesn't matter if you pool it in the meantime. A short term investment in both your names would be a good argument to test him. That way you could earn a bit more with that money together.

I'd go back to work in your situation, I just feel a bit uneasy reading your thread.
And ring-fence the money your parents will give you.

@AcrossthePond55 yes I can see where you are coming from and I've said that to him. I've said the only way of getting around this without joint names on all current savings is for me to go back to work and split everything equally. This is because of the attitude he has shown me towards money. If it weren't for that attitude I would be able to trust him.

I think the arrangement sounds pretty good (although I think I'm in the minority re accepting the savings pots as they are).

Are you still in mind to return to work? If so, have to broached the subject of sharing the childcare / housework? (I understand if you haven't yet, you've been busy!)

Makes no sense to have a mortgage on your home and none on the rental property as you will get no interest deduction for tax purposes. If you are going to do that it makes sense for your current house to go in your name as you would pay no income tax and he is a higher rate tax payer.
Also I would worry that you would not be entitled to 50% of the rental property as it is not marital home.

That is assuming you are staying at home of course.

@CommanderDaisy - agreed the resistance is worrying. As far as I have always been concerned, sometimes you are ahead and sometimes the other one is ahead, it doesn't really matter overall because what you have is shared.

@LittleOwl153 that's a really useful list, thank you.

Bluelady technically it isn't a marital home. It was his before marriage. This is where the law is sticky. They did not buy it together as a couple and it's in his name only! It doesn't necessarily automatically become a marital home because you're married! So op husband is getting two houses, a large deposit and someone to do all the chores and she gets berated for buying coffee. How about husband put the house you're living in, into both your names forget about the savings!

I would be really unhappy with his statement. A number of things rang alarm bells for me. It’s seems he views looking after your shared child as a great gift he is giving you rather than a shared decision and (ultimately!) effort/work. Why do you not get a lie in for example?

These miserly types are all the same, it's all about the money. Plenty of money there and so reluctant to spend anything. My husband is exactly the same which is why I would never be a SAHP, I already have to account for every spend out of the joint pot. Imagine if I was only relying on his earning the money

Sorry, I checked. I'm right. If it's rented out it stops being the marital home and OP could end up not getting any part of it. This, after putting £205k into the next one against his £85k. If it were me I'd insist the current house was sold to fund the next. From what I've seen Mr OP has already worked that one out.

It would still be a marital asset for consideration in a divorce settlement.