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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

999 replies

ChaosNeverRains · 15/03/2018 10:13

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

OP posts:
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LonginesPrime · 15/03/2018 14:34

Where is faith in atheism?

It's an atheist's belief that there isn't a god, but there's no way to prove they're right. Just as there's no way to prove theists are right.

There are things that atheists and theists present as irrefutable evidence that god doesn't/does exist which is sufficient evidence for them to believe this personally.

But just because they believe that something is the only explanation or the most plausible explanation, it doesn't make it definitely correct.

Eolian · 15/03/2018 14:35

“I agree there's a distinction between atheism and organised religion. But it's still a position based on faith

No it isn't. I also don't believe in ghosts. Is that a position based on faith? I don't believe in telepathy. Is that a position based on faith? Not believing in something for which there is no evidence simply doesn't require any faith.

EbonyJade · 15/03/2018 14:35

Stephen Hawking believed that the brain is like a computer and when we die it's because 'the components fail'.

He said that humans who believe in the afterlife are 'afraid of the dark'.

gussyfinknottle · 15/03/2018 14:36

Proving a negative is not really the idea.

MargaretCavendish · 15/03/2018 14:39

Both reach the cliff that is the edge of current knowledge- and theists then make the leap of faith. Atheists stay behind with knowledge and what is understood.

I think this is actually a better definition of agnostics, who say that it cannot be known whether or not god(s) exist. Atheists go a step beyond that and so also assert a position that goes beyond current knowledge.

EveningShadows · 15/03/2018 14:44

I agree with those saying god gets all the credit for things going right and none of the blame when things go wrong.

It’s this simplistic nature of religious explanation that I find so baffling Confused

Eolian · 15/03/2018 14:44

It's an atheist's belief that there isn't a god

This is silly. So, in theory, anybody could invent the existence of any deity/mythical creature/alien and if I said it didn't exist, you would consider my opinion a belief or an example of faith? Rather than simply an assumption that generally, things don't exist unless there is some evidence that they do?

Part of the problem is the definition of the word 'belief', which I suppose ranges from a thought about something to a faith in something unprovable.

headinhands · 15/03/2018 14:44

And if everything happens for a reason, aren't we screwing that up when we take precautions to prevent things happening, like vaccines? Or operations to remove tumours? Shouldn't charities stop helping because through their efforts they're stopping things happening that should be happening?

Lethaldrizzle · 15/03/2018 14:45

Wasn't it einstein who said - the more i learn, the more i realise I don't know.

headinhands · 15/03/2018 14:45

I mean imagine I tell my son we might go to Disney world next week if he keeps asking me and keeping his room tidy. But I know full well he's not going. But I don't tell him until he's spent all that time talking to me and thinking about it. If I told you I'd done this to my child you'd think I was psychologically messed up.

headinhands · 15/03/2018 14:47

The things is, these analogies between god and human behaviour have to be denominated down so heavily in order to equate allowing a child to be repeatedly raped by their step dad with allowing a child to try and ride a bike without stabilisers.

NotTakenUsername · 15/03/2018 14:48

I can't believe the stupidity of anyone who would think that atheism is a religion. Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

No, Atheism is a religion in the same way that wittering on about not collecting stamps is a hobby.

BertrandRussell · 15/03/2018 14:48

I suppose technically it is impossible to be an atheist-even Richard Dawkins says he is an agnostic. But it’s a good shorthand.. I can’t be 100% sure the sun will rise in the East tomorrow, but I don’t spend any time thinking about it not doing so. The existence of God is equally unlikely. So, agnostic if you like. A difference which makes no difference is no difference.

MargaretCavendish · 15/03/2018 14:49

I agree with those saying god gets all the credit for things going right and none of the blame when things go wrong.

Again, I've never heard any clerics or read any theologians who come close to this. I'm not saying that this idea doesn't exist, but people are acting as if this is what all churches teach, and it absolutely isn't.

TabbyTigger · 15/03/2018 14:52

Fear of the unknown, a weakness of the mind or a real hatred for women, gays and anyone who doesn't subscribe to the same belief system as you.

This is bizarre. There are both theists and atheists who refuse to acknowledge/accept one another’s beliefs. I believe in God and have never preached my belief to a non-believer. I rarely mention it to my friends outside of church. I don’t believe in the afterlife, I am a feminist, and I am pro LGBT. But I attend church 2-3 times a week and do believe in God and miracles.

Religion poisons everything. The world would be a better place without it in every single situation.

People who do awful things in the name of “religion” aren’t truly religious - they’re mentally unwell, and are using religion as a crutch. They would find an alternative crutch - a political one, or an economic one (like Hitler did...) to use. Religion itself is not responsible for many of the awful things people like to leave it accountable. It’s just wrongly used and misinterpreted by sick minded people who need to justify their awful actions.

RuthsRandomRadish · 15/03/2018 14:55

If there was a God then he must be evil. Babies and children die horribly painful deaths every day all over the world. Any God who allowed that is evil

headinhands · 15/03/2018 14:58

I believe in God and have never preached my belief to a non-believer. I rarely mention it to my friends outside of church.

The NT is pretty clear about the call to evangelism though. It's very much a religion all about telling people.

TabbyTigger · 15/03/2018 15:02

headinhands what does NT stand for?

As I said in my post - both theists and atheists have the potential to broadcast and argue their views to what I believe is an unreasonable degree. I would never try and force my perspective on someone else, and have been disgusted when people have tried to do so to me.

TabbyTigger · 15/03/2018 15:03

I realise you mean New Testament! I don’t read it that way and don’t believe you have to.

Bolokov · 15/03/2018 15:06

Yes, I think most people prefer the new testament and or a Hollywood type versions of the bible . Life is unfair and god is unfair that seems quite consistent to me but I admit its not a cosy picture.

headinhands · 15/03/2018 15:08

That's interesting. So do you feel it's only for certain people to tell others about god? I assume you do as otherwise the religion would die out.

LonginesPrime · 15/03/2018 15:08

I also don't believe in ghosts. Is that a position based on faith? I don't believe in telepathy. Is that a position based on faith?

Yes.

Not believing in something for which there is no evidence simply doesn't require any faith.

It requires faith that the thing doesn't exist. And faith that the way you understand the world to be is how it actually is. Unless you have irrefutable proof of your position, it's just your belief. And irrefutable proof is extremely difficult to find as there will always be alternative explanations and viewpoints.

Most of what we believe we 'know' is based on faith, so I don't think the atheism thing is such a big deal.

Bumbledumb · 15/03/2018 15:10

I think this is actually a better definition of agnostics

Agnosticism is not a separate alternative to atheism and theism. An agnostic is someone who believes that we cannot know if God exists. Both theists and atheists can be agnostic.

TabbyTigger · 15/03/2018 15:13

headinhands

“So do you feel it's only for certain people to tell others about god?”

Honestly, I don’t feel it’s for anyone to spread God’s message uninvited. If someone enquires about my belief system, I will tell them how I feel (but never try to convert). I believe it’s important to spread faith within your church community and keep your own faith alive, but not to invade anyone else’s beliefs in doing so. I found faith in God on my own.

Eolian · 15/03/2018 15:14

No, Atheism is a religion in the same way that wittering on about not collecting stamps is a hobby

No, wittering isn't a hobby Confused, whether you are wittering about your religion or about the fact that you don't have one. I prefer reasoned debate to wittering, personally. I'm not sure that's really a hobby either. So the point stands. Not believing in something is not a religion.