To be really annoyed and disappointed with Dh views on this

[fleec]

Dh just said to me that the gender pay gap doesn't really exist. He said that women choose lower paid jobs because it suits them . Also that women choose to slow down their careers because of children and that women have less assertive personalities meaning that they are generally suited to less senior roles.

I am fuming with him. I cannot believe that he thinks this . AIBU to think that we are all different and that you can't generalise in this way! I am not one who generally holds very strong feminist views but this has really got to me.

'Yes, I agree. Women (who don't already feel this way) need to start seeing men as equally important parents with the same amount of responsibility and capability as mothers.'

And equally men have to step up and be equally responsible and capable. I know far too many couples where the woman would love to do more at work but their husband point blank refuses to change his working situation in any way to accommodate that, or if they do take over childcare they do it in such a half-arsed way that the woman just ends up totally stressed and resentful. Far too many women end up working, organising everything for the children, organising childcare and keeping the house running while their partner just goes to work and doesn't take any real responsibility for anything else.

I know far too many couples where the woman would love to do more at work but their husband point blank refuses to change his working situation in any way to accommodate that, or if they do take over childcare they do it in such a half-arsed way that the woman just ends up totally stressed and resentful. Far too many women end up working, organising everything for the children, organising childcare and keeping the house running while their partner just goes to work and doesn't take any real responsibility for anything else.

Yes I think that many women only "appear" to want to be the one who works part time or do all maternity leave. In reality they may have been very happy to work full time if they felt that their partner would be doing their fair share or organising, childcare etc etc.

I agree Dungeon. I don't think people realise how ingrained gender roles are and how much they shape how we think and act. A SAHM for example is usually expected to do absolutely everything for the children, and to do most things in the house, such that the working father has to worry very little about any of the household details - after all, his work is Very Important. However, I know a few women who work fulltime and their husbands are either part time and or SAHDs and in absolutely none of those cases does the father take care of everything to do with the house and children - he might do a good chunk of it, but the mother still plays a very active role in making sure clothes are bought, school events are organised etc. Very few women take that hands-off approach that men take - their work is rarely considered Important enough to justify them never getting up at night with the baby, for example.

Well, I guess some careers might be slowed down a bit due to having maternity leave but, other than that, I think your DH is a prat and completely in the wrong.

Also, the burden that women take on in managing everything in the house is so often disregarded - it's seen as nothing very valuable (as evidenced by the posters on this thread who reckon raising children is of no value to society) and so women just have to do it, silently, around everything else. Of course, for men, it's all too difficult and they can't possibly be expected to do it, they need to downtime and to rest and to see their friends etc. but for women it's just something they do automatically with no one even noticing. Carrying that burden almost entirely alone, or entirely alone is incredibly difficult and many women find they just don't have the energy to do that and give anything to a job at the same time.

Also, the burden that women take on in managing everything in the house is so often disregarded - it's seen as nothing very valuable (as evidenced by the posters on this thread who reckon raising children is of no value to society*)

*except the partners with whom they share their children.

Incidentally, these partners (men!) are more than capable of household management tasks. It's for them to sort out amongst themselves, and crucially, a discussion to have before you select your mate.

Nice try, though.

I work part time as it's the only way I have time to both work and have a reasonably together life.
Dh would love to spend more time with the dcs but he doesn't give a shiny shit about grocery shopping, housework, paying bills, getting new shoes for dcs, taking them to clubs or play dates. I'm not going to do all this and work full time.

These men who don’t give a shiny shit about grocery shopping - how do they feel about starving to death?

They don’t give a shit because it’s done for them. Not because their brains are just too big for such trivialities.

I can see where he's coming from with "less assertive", but I think that's entirely down to NURTURE and not nature.

Anecdotal evidence: I'm a woman, started on 26k, been very happy with every promotion and currently on 31k. Would never dream of just asking for a payrise.

My (male) friend started on 26k. He is ridiculously confident, thinks he is god's gift and after 1 year of working told me "I think I'm worth 45k, so will ask my boss for 45k". His boss gave him 36k.

I wouldn't dream of asking for a payrise, ever, and if I did, I don't think I'd be able to say it confidently. And this is from a loud opinionated say-it-how-it-is fairly confident woman.

This is just 2 people, so might not be gender related, but I suspect it is.

I think there must be biological differences or at least a different mentality, otherwise the situation couldn't persist in the way it does. Or maybe it's because men don't see that they have any other option or role in life but to work /earn money, whereas women feel they can opt out of this to a greater or lesser extent?

So why did you not tell your husband "You know you can go part-time?"
Why did you not challenge your son with his sexist view that "factoring in children" is a woman's concern but not a man's?
Why don't women want to share maternity leave?

I know far too many couples where the woman would love to do more at work but their husband point blank refuses to change his working situation in any way to accommodate that

Also, why are women choosing such ass-hats to breed with? Surely this is a discussion everyone should have before marriage and kids - what would we like to do when we have kids? Then you can find out about their 1950's views before you're stuck with them for life. My friend once dated a guy who announced that all mums should quit work, "you can't have it all" and that they are being bad parents if they return to work. Out the door he flew.

Me and my partner are both the sort of people that like work-life balance with emphasis on life. We are out the door by 4:30 in our job, which luckily offers PT and flexitime to everyone, even at Principal level. We would split Shared Parental Leave equally and then go 4 days a week each. If he'd announced to me that his job was "too important" for him to do that, and he expected me to go part time, we would not be getting married.

Incidentally, these partners (men!) are more than capable of household management tasks. It's for them to sort out amongst themselves, and crucially, a discussion to have before you select your mate.

How would discussing help? I'm pretty sure that before having children many men would agree that they would contribute equally to childcare, mental load etc but often that turns out not to be the case once children are born (and it's too late to do much about it other than LTB).

If he'd announced to me that his job was "too important" for him to do that, and he expected me to go part time, we would not be getting married.

What if he said that he wouldn't work part time but he didn't expect you to either?

If my dh didn’t give a shiny shit about grocery shopping and bills he could stop using our food and electricity. And if he didn’t care about the kids admin he could move out so he had to stop pretending he was anything other than a shit dad. I can’t believe he has actually said that to you and you haven’t gone apeshit and thrown him out?

"gone apeshit and thrown him out?"

I suspect because she's an adult and because at least half the house is his.

Well i do mean absolutely lose it. If not thrown him out I would be making it clear that’s not my idea of marriage and we won’t be married. I have had these conversations, I deliberately let some bills go unpaid and took the late notices to my dh and said If you don’t pay them and I don’t pay them I guess we lose the house. And I stopped cooking for him because it’s not my job, I totally get that he doesnt enjoy it but not do I! All this was years ago, he’s fabulous now.

(Joint finances re the bills, I just mean doing all the shit jobs)

No he's never said that at all, I mean they are low on his radar and he wouldn't really be bothered if not done (until electric cut off I suppose!) He would (and has) absolutely done grocery shopping but has he meal planned and checked what's already there? Course not. Maybe it's more a question of standards and mine are higher than his (though still average imho.) I think the being in charge of stuff happens for many couples when one is on maternity leave and the other working ft and of course it makes sense that you sort out x,y and z as you're at home... and then it becomes expected.
Having said all this I am currently away for the weekend (second this month) and he has our dcs and (according to my mil) this makes him some kind of paragon..

There is a certain naivety to those who think the problems with men doing their fair share with regard to childcare, mental load, housework etc can be prevented by having a conversation before getting married. I bet few nowadays would say in advance that they expect a women to give up their career or work time or doing the majority of childcare, mental loads, housework. Many only stop doing their fair share after children are born during maternity leave and it often seems to stay that way.

I will also add that there are few lonelier, more confidence-destroying experiences than being a woman who isn't naturally good at the unrecognised work like the shopping and cooking and cleaning and looking after the kids. Nobody notices if you do a good job with it, but if you get it wrong you're at best a laughing stock and at worst Social Services (or more likely your soon to be ex, along with his mother and his new partner) are pinning you as an unfit mother and an aberration of your sex.

So, timeisnotaline - do you think it's the case that the women who end up in a situation where they have no choice but to take on the majority of the childcare and housework are just idiots who didn't plan ahead? And that men have nothing to answer for there?

Also, the burden that women take on in managing everything in the house is so often disregarded - it's seen as nothing very valuable (as evidenced by the posters on this thread who reckon raising children is of no value to society)

except the partners with whom they share their children.

Incidentally, these partners (men!) are more than capable of household management tasks. It's for them to sort out amongst themselves, and crucially, a discussion to have before you select your mate.

Nice try, though.*

I'm not sure what the 'nice try' thing means here Road. I can't really see what point you're trying to make.

I'm less worried about the current rules for Gender Pay Gap reporting than i am of Equal Pay. I think Equal pay is far more important.

Also, the burden that women take on in managing everything in the house is so often disregarded - it's seen as nothing very valuable (as evidenced by the posters on this thread who reckon raising children is of no value to society

it's not that it has no value to society, it's that people will raise their own children even if you don't pay them. Value and remuneration aren't the same. you can get away with paying people a lot less if they are going to do the job anyway.

No inseoir. It’s obviously complicated. Some of the complications are 1.having the conversion ahead of time in no way means the discussion is closed- I have been having some elements of this discussion over the past ten years. 2. Not everyone is good at this type of communication and analysis or being clear up front on expectations 3. The mat leave period creates a dynamic change - i again had to work through shifting the balance back post mat leave 4. Men are far from blameless but have also often been conditioned - my mil would do everything for her boys. I think her parenting is partly the source of every key difference in roles we have had. 5. Balance of power - I earn as much as my husband , if I stayed at home I could go back to work easily if things changed, everybody we know knows I could manage without him.

But I don’t entirely know what accusation I’m responding to. No the woman isn’t wholly to blame but in cases like these the woman’s attitude is the only chance of fixing it, he’s not going to have an epiphany. I would think this is obvious. I frequently fix messes I’m not to blame for at work, imagine how much more invested we are in our own marriage?

It's not an accusation, I'm trying to break down the thinking behind what you're saying. It's interesting that you say it's your MIL and not your FIL that's responsible for how their children behave and that you think the woman should fix the situation with a lazy husband, rather than just telling him to buck the fuck up and walk away if he doesn't?