...To Think Free Speech is Dead in the UK

[RockyBayEve]

After 3 free speech advocates American Brittany Pettibone, her Austrian boyfriend and Canadian journalist Lauren Southern are detained by UK border force, barred from speaking at Speakers Corner, deported or barred entry.

Of course there are limits to free speech in all countries. Promoting criminal behaviour is a redline the world over. It's not even interesting to debate as basically everyone (apart from criminals) agrees.

Holocaust denial is a crime in some countries because people decided it was a very of stirring up hatred. Stirring up hatred is a more nuanced form of inciting criminality. Once upon a time, I too would have argued for an extreme form of FoE much as defended here. However, things have changed my mind. Here's one. David Irving. He admits his particular brand of free speech had gone right off the boil after famous court case. No one was interested in publishing his words, or videoing him for TV. He and his 'opinions' dropped off the radar. Until the internet explosion gave him a new platform. Now he's quite the star.

Here's a recent one to digest. Read the UN's concerns about the link between facebook posts and the Myanmar ethic violence. Then you have to realise there is a line to be taken. We all have to learn to live together and sometimes that means shutting your gob.

Bombardier25966

But these people don't want open debate, they just want to spread their hate filled lies.

Sweetie please please quote...

It's the Streisand effect in my house.

I'm listening to Lauren's side of it on Sargon of Akkad.

'my grandfather's fought...' is often used as an argument for the right to say anything you like.

Wrong.
My grandparents never fought in WW2.
I guess they were a tad tired after 800 years of oppression.

Maybe the OP agrees with them??

Really?? That’s the only reason you think of why someone might actually value the principles of freedom of thought/opinion/expression?

No wonder this country is in such a fucking mess right now!

‘Open debate’ means that people need to be allowed to talk about what they think! Not that only correct opinions dhould be allowed to be expressed, which in fact is the exact opposite of an ‘open debate.

So just to make it clear: I am not in any way aligned with the views of those people. But I value MY freedom, MY right to my opinion and expression of it, and MY protection from attempts to silence, intimidate and ‘manage’ me. So I afford that courtesy to all others in return.

Meh, they've been banning radical Islamic preachers, white supremacists and even animal rights activists for years. Can't really get het up about this.

The leaflet that Lauren Southern was distributing and the reason why she was apparently banned from the UK was this;

i2.wp.com/media.breitbart.com/media/2018/03/YCiH7WVI.jpg

Don't worry about this OP. One of the young women was interviewed this morning on BBC radio, hardly a fringe media outlet. She got her airtime. Please come back when an Abu Hamza type is also refused entry on same grounds.

I'd rather there be limited free speech if it protects people from hate speech.

'Sweetie'

Cannot take you seriously now OP.

So you'd be happy to allow anyone from a far right neo nazi (violence to anyone who isn't white) to the most conservative weird religious type (beating and raping your wife is fine) on a soapbox at speakers corner?

Yes I would. A lot of the speakers at Speakers Corner are actually fundamentalist Islamists who preach the most offensive, supremacist, medieval shit but unless they are actually calling for the death of a specific individuals or specific groups I think they should be allowed to say whatever they want. The same goes for people who think the earth is flat, people who think the holocaust never happened. The more you suppress these kind of opinions, the more they see themselves as "martyrs" and "persecuted" and the more they flourish in the cesspits of the internet and gain real power from like minded nutters. If you can challenge opinions and beliefs you can dismantle them. Free speech also diffuses pent up aggression and allows nutters to verbalise their anger/hate rather than let it bubble up inside and turn into physical violence.

I think once you start banning certain speech, you end up burning books "because they might be racist" or banning ideas "because they might cause offense". These are the actions of totalitarian states, not the liberal west.

They’re a bunch of annoying racists whose sole aim is to cause disturbance. Good riddance:

I have no problems saying there are some people who I don’t believe deserve the right to peddle their hate-filled views in public. Britain First, UKIP... we’re better off without them.

brilliant news - along with BF being kicked off FB

good day all round

OP we free speech isn't a thing - stop banging on about it

no one has the right to spread hate and lies

There’s no Free Speech anywhere thanks to social media. If you aren’t agreeing with the majority then you are bullied, hassled and told you are a xenophobic arsehole (bitter experience) Basically, your opinion only seems to count these days if it matches everyone else’s

I'd rather my children, and my friends children be protected from Far Right hatred, and the violence that follows

I want my children to also be protected from far left hatred and the violence of Antifa. The extreme left are just as bad as the extreme right.

The left as bad as the far right? You must be fucking joking.

@mygoditsfullofstars if you read the refusal letter that this woman has herself posted online, you'll see that the poster she previously distributed is not mentioned and is not the reason why she was refused entry. It seems to entirely be about the activities she had planned for this trip.

And antifa? IS ANTI FASCISM. If you’re pro fascism then I’m kinda worried tbh

and told you are a xenophobic arsehole (bitter experience)

Don't want to be labelled xenophobic? Don't spout xenophobic bullshit.

I want my children to also be protected from far left hatred and the violence of Antifa. The extreme left are just as bad as the extreme right.

I’m a hard leftist. Please, tell me how I’m as bad as those who wish to murder those who aren’t white, or straight.

Thank you Holgar for putting that so well. We need to be able to discuss things rather than be in an echo chamber with nobody daring to disagree for fear of retribution.

Obviously inciting violence is different but how can we argue against something if those who think differently to current consensus cannot say anything.

Whatever is said will offend somebody. Maybe we just need to accept that being offended occasionally is just part of life.

I want my children to also be protected from far left hatred and the violence of Antifa

What does Far Left hatred look like?

I know what Far Right hatred looks like.

I have heard some of Southern's stuff. Why is it hate speech or why should it be banned?

I don't care for it at all, but it isn't inciting violence.

The trouble is, where do you draw the line? There are lots of people criticising things like immigration and Islam from Southern to Douglas Murray (who is also someone I disagree with, but most certainly isn't spreading hate). How do you draw the line. There will always be people who disagree with you, and some of the them are clearly well meaning.

The line should be clear, and inciting violence should be it.