...To Think Free Speech is Dead in the UK

[RockyBayEve]

After 3 free speech advocates American Brittany Pettibone, her Austrian boyfriend and Canadian journalist Lauren Southern are detained by UK border force, barred from speaking at Speakers Corner, deported or barred entry.

Quote: " Your pleasure at her obstruction just demonstrates to the rest of us that we have a growing religious problem on our hands in this country."

How do you work that out? I'm not religious myself. Just an ordinary white working class woman.

Yes this, exactly Bishopbrennansarse

"Makes me laugh all the bollocks spouted on this thread to justify all sorts of nasty stuff.

All when right here in the UK we do not have any right to freedom of speech at all. None.

We have the right to freedom of expression with certain exceptions - we are not allowed to express ourselves in ways that would alarm, harass or cause distress. We are not allowed to express ourselves in a way that would be a breach of the peace. We are not allowed to express ourselves in any way that is considered incitement.

That is the law in this country since 1998."

Would those so passionately defending free speech stand up for my right to tell everyone on your street that you're a sexual predator?

Quite.

And I disagree that the problem in this country is religion, most people moving here are trying to get away from extremist views and religious oppression. The problem is culture, not faith, and patriarchy, not worship.

We have a lot of young men moving here from countries in which women are second class citizens and they don't understand the freedom that British women have. Now that's a huge problem. But people are scared to speak up. I support your rights to free speech there. Just look at Rotherham.

But some cultures moving here need to adapt. That adaptation in my view does not include having their God and their faith abused on a regular basis as expecting them to shut up or be Cooley intellectual about it. Everyone living here has the right to live in peace and tolerance unless they are committing a crime, supporting crimes being committed or living in a way Contrary to British values. Or showing hatred for our citizens or way of life.

And you know what? Most people do and they still manage to practise their faith or hang onto the cultural traditions that are important to them. It's a small minority that are complete bastards.

Winding up completely peaceful people while they go about their business and insulting their God is unnecessary and achieves fuck all. It's snidey and you all know it.

It's like a bunch of bratty kids starting a "your mum" war.

Religion can be debated and challenged in a perfectly respectful way in my experience. For an example of that check the recent thread questions about Islam in the philosophy religion threads on Mumsnet. The OP manages to bring up some really important questions and sensitive issues without insulting or abusing anybody. Because her intention is not to be a goody fucker.

Here you go

Questions about Islam (genuine). Potentially triggering.http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophyreligionn_spirituality/3188490-Questions-about-Islam-genuine-Potentially-triggering

dullandold
There was never a civil war in Ireland
You know your history and are Irish eh?!

oh sorry 'war of independence' if you would rather.

Religion can be debated and challenged in a perfectly respectful way in my experience. For an example of that check the recent thread questions about Islam in the philosophy religion threads on Mumsnet. The OP manages to bring up some really important questions and sensitive issues without insulting or abusing anybody. Because her intention is not to be a goody fucker.

nobody claimed that mockery is the best way to further discussion, but it is a way. The trouble is that some people will think any discussion is offensive. Simply questioning God's existence might be offensive to some. where is the line?

And if you think being a goady fucker serves no purpose, a lot of the recent examples of such have highlighted some important differences between cultures and religions.

The people most hurt by any sort of blasphemy laws are those trying to leave or reform religions. The removal of them have helped this society enormously. You don't have any right not to be offended.

For everything that people discuss about racism, there's two influential communities being sidelined in the UK - Jews and Non-Muslim Indians.

If you truly believe in freedom of speech, then you have to be prepared to support others freedoms to speak ideas that you may find offensive. Because, one day, it might be YOUR opinions and speech that are considered offensive by someone else and shut down. And then who will fight for you?
Whether you agree with Pettibone/Sellner/Southern’s views on immigration is utterly irrelevant. Whether you find Charlie Hebdo’s brand of satirical cartoon funny is irrelevant. Whether you find Count Dankula’s joke offensive is irrelevant. Who are you to dictate what speech should be considered acceptable or not? If we cannot air our opinions and views freely, then we can’t discuss them. We can’t expose them to light of day, to be challenged and questioned and debunked. And it’s heading towards a very rigid, totalitarian state that gets to decide which views it will allow and which will be found banned.
This terrifies me. Truly.
And it’s pathetic that we are so concerned about offending the sensitive feelings of grown adults, that we are willing to destroy our basic and most precious right to freedom of thought and expression. Freedom of speech must include the license to offend. Come on! Surely we’re mature and strong enough to handle some canadian girl’s views on immigration! Or some cartoonist’s opinions of a religion. Or a religious fanatic’s views on homosexuals.

This is the best debate on freedom of speech doing the rounds on YouTube.

This is the best debate on freedom of speech doing the rounds on YouTube

Seconded.

Winding up completely peaceful people while they go about their business and insulting their God is unnecessary and achieves fuck all. It's snidey and you all know it

Can you not understand, on any level, that the real problem is not what is said about religion, but the response it sometimes gets? You are pointing your outrage in the wrong direction.

It’s shocking and abhorrent just how dismissive so many people are of the single most important right we have...the freedom of expression. Every other right we have stems from this. The moment it was granted us, lives changed & science flourished.

And now, here we are in 2018, once again being censored when it comes to opinions about cosmic universe creators and ideologies that are hideously barbaric.

If Christians, Muslims and all the others want to be offended by another human being’s opinion then they are perfectly entitled to be...but that is THEIR problem and absolutely no one elses. It is an unfortunate consequence of sharing a planet with 7 billion other people and they are just going to have to deal with it.

We all have rights and we have to learn to live alongside the rights of others. And that includes acknowledging that people may say things that we don’t like much.

As Bertrand Russell said, “In a democracy it is necessary that people should learn to endure having their sentiments outraged.”

Damn right. But no one has to learn to endure that these days because they can hide behind the skirts of the “have a bit of respect” bunch bossily tellings us all what we can or can’t say.

Go and tell Raif Badawi that he should have “had a bit of respect” when he happened to mention, in Saudi Arabia, that he didn’t believe in god. He was charged with and convicted of “insulting Islam” and was sentenced to 10 years in prison and 1000 lashes.

Do you approve of this? If not...why not? He hurt the feelings of Muslims. Maybe you think the sentence harsh in which case, what would you suggest instead? A bunch of self-appointed censors from Mumsnet to tell him off and pretend they are morally superior because they are themselves terribly, terribly “respectful” of all belief systems?

And, no, I am not interested in lame excuses about how there’s a balance because there isn’t. There is freedom of expression or there is not. When you don’t have it, you get situations like Raif’s.

When we have a world where hurt people of faith are strapping on suicide vests and blowing each other up, the last...the very, very last...thing we should be doing is lending support by pretending that, although their actions are extreme, their outrage is understandable. Because no it bloody isn’t.

I was profoundly disgusted by the response the Charlie Hebdo attacks received on this very site. At least 90% of people commenting were saying, “Oh yes, it’s terrible...but....” and then trying to lecture everybody about doctrines they clearly knew nothing about.

I don’t respect medieval ideologies that are full of death and destruction and I don’t have to. And thank fuck I have the right to say that in this country - shame on all of you who are trying to curb it with prissy little sound bites like “Well, freedom of expression is not freedom to be an asshole”. Well, yes it is, actually. And anyone who doesn’t understand that has some reading to catch up on.

One day it might dawn on you lot just how much damage you are doing to society - all in the service of earning some MN glory by proving (you think) that you’re not racist or sexist or homophobic et al. Because that’s all you are doing at the end of the day, and you know it.

Great Post, Tabby.

Tabby - great post!

@RockyBayEve tell me. If you heard about an Imam encouraging impressionable young muslims to hire vans and plough through crowds on London Bridge - would you defend to the death his right to do so? Would you say he should be engaged in open debate, instead of banned from spreading his message?

Because the only difference between the above scenario and those in your OP is the colour of their skin. Both are inciting terrorism and violence. Both are threatening the safety and wellbeing of innocent people.

The way I see it, you can have as much "free" speech as you like - but you have no right to be "free" from the repercussions of your speech, whether they be legal consequences or hurt feelings.

The regressive left may be intolerant. But the far right should only be tolerated within limits by any decent society.

This type of view - that the far-right should be silenced because it is 'worse' than the far-left, is naive and dangerous. Please. The far-left led to totalitarian regimes like Stalin's and Mao's, both personally responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. Yet only Hitler was a baddie? And the far-left is only capable of being 'intolerant'? Learn from history. Far-left ideology is dangerous.

And what both far-right and far-left regimes have in common is a lack of free speech. (they have everything else in common too).

And yy to the posters arguing that freedom of speech is our more valuable, most precious civil right, which underpins the very fabric of liberal democracy. Once it's gone, everything is gone. Please don't be so naive as to think that silencing the views of people you may disagree with, whose views you may find abhorrent, is ever okay. Because once free speech is gone, it's gone, and you will soon find yourself silenced.

Hate speech is disgusting but certain religious groups get away with it 🙄

Tricky one isn't it

Hatred is preached against white women in mosques all the time

With the catastrophic results that are starting to come out from the last 30 years
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10061217/Imams-promote-grooming-rings-Muslim-leader-claims.html

Should they be allowed to continue to feed the endemic South Asian Muslim racism?

Some people above have referred to 'Britain First' and 'right wingers'... sorry but aren't these people a reaction to the carnage which has been wrought on white children across the country?

There seems to be this concern about some orgy of anti-Muslim violence at some point in the future but the truth is that there has ALREADY BEEN an orgy of racist violence against white children and Sikh girls. Lord Pearson asked a question in the Lords where he cited that there have been literally MILLIONS of religiously motivated racially aggravated rapes of white children (not just girls, boys too) and Sikh girls by vast networks of racist Muslims (also not just limited to one sex - two Muslim women are on trial in Huddersfield for child sex slavery).

There have also been thousands of gang attacks on (mainly) young white men by Muslim gangs including at least four murders. The police have said that the press - dominated by left wing NUJ journalists - is not interested in reporting on this.

So really it's Alice Through the Looking Glass stuff. Orwell's predictions have come true: up is down and black is white

As such I have to not be sick when I read about 'right wingers' - the Left wing is riddled with racism and hatred: anti-semitic, anti-white, anti-English and anti-male.

All this talk about 'hate' is just psychological projection of the way they think.

I certainly want the freedom of speech to point that out.