Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what A&E docs do when they are not with patients?

338 replies

coffeeforone · 13/03/2018 08:59

I recently spent a night in the children’s section of my local A&E, and spent some time observing the docs/nurses work whilst DS was asleep on a monitor.

There were 4 nurses and 2 doctors sat behind a long desk (plus a registrar that seemed to pop in and out occasionally - busy elsewhere I assume).

It wasn’t especially busy. We were there for 6 hours and in total about 5 or 6 children came in and were seen by one of the docs (after waiting about 3 hours). After triage, we waited about 3 hours to be seen by a doctor. It seemed like they had an awful lot of paperwork/discussions, but didn’t have much time to consult with the actual patients. I did wonder what was taking up all their time. AIBU to think they could have had a more efficient system?

OP posts:
Tessliketrees · 14/03/2018 00:32

You know this thread has made me reflect on the fact that I have literally never seen an idle junior doctor on the wards/A+E where I work.

Consultants seem to evaporate after ward rounds but the F1s-SHOs seem to be there all day writing and typing and generally being busy.

It's actually humbled me a little bit because it's a theme at work how the doctors don't interact with the other staff. Nurses, social workers, domestics, ward clerks, porters etc etc will all have a bit of a gab (and I mean a bit, we are all as busy as fuck) or at least let on to each other when we become familiar. Doctors seem to hold themselves apart.

On reflection I rarely see doctors interacting with each other outside of work talk and I see them a lot.

randomuntrainedcuntowner · 14/03/2018 00:35

And you only think that sweetiebabe is a "good" hcp because she agrees with you and your general loathing of doctors, not because you have any evidence she is a good/nice hcp. I am sure plenty of the doctors, nurses and other hcps who have defended doctors on this thread are very good at what they do and very good to their patients.

cambodianfoxhound · 14/03/2018 00:36

I think more time wasting goes on in most jobs than people are prepared to admit to. Everyone is always 'so so busy' yet I routinely observe A LOT of time wasting... I can't see that just because someone is a Dr they are magically exempt from this...

I am not saying that a lot of people are not genuinely run off their feet, I get this. BUT a LOT of people who go on and on about how busy they are, spend an awful lot of time faffing about and wasting time...

randomuntrainedcuntowner · 14/03/2018 00:43

@nocoolnamesleft

I am due to go on an exam revision course tomorrow. It is free, but if I don't show up I will get charged £50.

Also I don't want to flunk this exam as it is coming up in April and cost me £450 to book it - I will have to pay to sit it again if I fail.

I am much better now though. Bleeding has settled right down and at least I know if I go on this course I will get to sit down most of the day and get a lunch break with free food so I'll get a break and get to eat!

It's also my birthday tomorrow so going for dinner with my folks - really don't feel like celebrating be another year older and still not pregnant. 😕

randomuntrainedcuntowner · 14/03/2018 00:47

Exam is an essential part of my training by the way. Also pay hundreds of pounds for an essential eportfolio in which we have to write reflections that could be used against us in court. Plus several hundreds of pounds several times a year to the gmc who have driven several good innocent doctors to suicide with the aggressive and inhumane way they deal with investigations. I sometimes wonder why the fuck I do this job! 😕

SweetieBaby · 14/03/2018 01:05

Random - I don't have a general loathing for doctors per se. I think drs, as a group, are like every other group of human beings - all different. Some are good at their job, some are nice, some are hard working, some are lazy, some are unpleasant etc etc. I would imagine the majority are like the rest of us, a mixture of everything sometimes more one thing than another but in the main well intentioned and wanting to do their best.

I do know though, both personally and professionally, of drs (and other HCPs) who have made mistakes/errors of judgement. I don't agree with the philosophy that the NHS and people who work in it are beyond reproach and always, without fail, are doing the right thing. That simply is not true.

I have also been shocked by the view of one poster and by your apparent agreement of the comment. Maybe I've had a sense of humour failure but I didn't find it funny by a supposed dr (not saying I don't believe they are a dr, just acknowledging that it is an anonymous forum so I guess we don't really know that we are who we say we are) saying that patients would still be treated despite their lower intelligence or lack of intellect or whatever the quote was. I'm just uncomfortable that anyone should fear a dr passing judgement on them for any reason really, least of all intelligence or intellect.

Onlyoldontheoutside · 14/03/2018 01:07

So OP,your child is I'll enough to be seen in A&E.This is not like a quick appointment when you are looked at ,given a diagnosis and sent home or admitted by the first Dr who sees you.
Your child was being monitored for a few hours after being triaged,if your child is not very ill then this is sensible to see if your child is deteriorating or not.
As for the Drs at the desk,you have no idea what they were doing,they are responsible for more patients than you can see and notes,referrals almost everything is on line now.
As for talking about non work related things can anyone here,hand on heart say they have never talked about non work related issues at work.
And if you're really ,really bothered ask,rather than come on here and moan,they were at the desk,available so ask.

cambodianfoxhound · 14/03/2018 01:10

To be fair though, my experiences with the NHS have always been excellent. I think a lot of people would be shocked by the amount of time wasting that goes on in fields where people are paid a hell of a lot more than in the NHS and not nearly providing as important a service to society. Doctors and Nurses are human.

nocoolnamesleft · 14/03/2018 01:12

SweetieBaby

If you're that shocked by the comment you mention, any chance you could actually quote it? Because I hadn't spotted it in a quick scroll through, which makes it harder to respond to it. I am however shocked at you carrying on having a go at an exhausted stressed out junior doctor who's in the middle of a miscarriage. Not surprised, of course. After all, we're used to being treated like shit.

Random

Seriously, please do look after yourself. You know the old saying about in an emergency, first take your own pulse? The job is hard enough at the best of times. We're having too many good doctors driven out of the profession. We need to try to look after the ones that we have left!

Onlyoldontheoutside · 14/03/2018 01:12

By the way drs and nurses as a group are knackered,tired of being damned if we do damned if we don't.Doing a lot of extra hours,often unpaid.And we are leaving in droves faster than we are being replaced.

randomuntrainedcuntowner · 14/03/2018 01:23

What he actually said is that we will carry on treating anyone, regardless of intellect or personality failings or something. Meaning that even the ignorant obnoxious patients still get the same treatment (and there are some believe me). I don't think he was attaching the op personally.

And frankly I don't blame him (or her). It is hard not to lose your shit when you are busting your balls on a daily basis for your patients, and one comes on line essentially trying to make out that doctors stand around doing nothing.

We can't say what we really mean to our patients as most of us our professionals, but he was able to on here as it is an anonymous forum, just as you have repeatedly put your very strong opinions across.

Why are you no longer a nurse by the way?

randomuntrainedcuntowner · 14/03/2018 01:25

Honestly, I'm fine. Just this thread touched a nerve after a weekend of oncalls where I definitely was not standing around twiddling my thumbs.

I looked round the group of us at handover on Sunday and we all looked physically and mentally broken.

doublehelix · 14/03/2018 01:40

I have just finished training as a paediatric registrar. One of the most frustrating aspects of working in a&e was that the only thinking, calculating, prescribing and documenting desk space was opposite the waiting room.

Endless glares from people waiting and so many interruptions to concentration about "how long". People coming with an "emergency" one minute and then getting frustrated once bedtime approaches and they suddenly want to go home.

The chit chat was not ideal but whilst waiting for systems to load/switch patients etc we are tempted to be sociable and it helps to bond that night's team so that if you are later resuscitating a cardiac arrested child you all work well together and can support each other in the aftermath.

GPs can see children quickly as they should see low risk children and a few questions, quick listen and shine of a torch is enough to Exclude the RARE SERIOUS cases for further assessment. Well until proven sick.

Hospital doctors are trained to work with the seriously ill. This requires a full detailed history and full examination and period of observation to exclude what should be the RARE CASE of a WELL patient who can be discharged. Sick until proven well.

Only nowadays well people come to a&e too (either by choice or 111) and get frustrated with us when we are being thorough or for Making preposterous suggestions to wake a sleeping toddler to assess their "emergency".

As a paeds reg, if someone has referred a child in I am duty bound to exclude sepsis before discharge (or could risk a dead child or a prison sentence for manslaughter as per recent case). We are observing your child's behaviour and observations over time not "doing nothing".

Fevers come and go with illnesses serious or mild. It is not the number of the temp that matters it is the underlying cause or abnormal heart rate etc that cause worry. It is harder to disprove illness and takes time. If the illness only started 2 hrs ago there might not be a red ear to blame yet. If every toddler with a fever of 40 went to hospital the system would collapse. Gps are a very effective filter but are not being used.

I hope that explains a bit why you wait. You should not go to a&e with an illness mild enough that you expect discharge. You will get a better more appropriate service from your gp.

Also remember you don't know what we have just done. I have gone to A&e straight from seeing very preterm babies and doing emergency airway procedures, children dying from a brain tumour, unsuccessful resuscitation of a child whose head was run over by a neighbours car and from telling parents their child has cancer. Getting an earful because Ryan has been waiting 3 hr with his earache takes the biscuit. We try to be poker faced but are still human.

SweetieBaby · 14/03/2018 01:44

Nocoolnames - here you go

PaddyF0dder

@coffeeforone

Christ your attitude stinks. And don’t think for a moment that your passive aggressive “clearly I was wrong” schtick goes unnoticed. Anyone reading that can tell you’re still having a go. You are not as clever as you think you are.

As a hard working NHS doctor, can I just say that... we’ll continue to help you and your family, no matter what gross personality defects and lack of appreciation you seem to possess.

That’s how it works. You’re welcome. Glad your kid is ok. Sorry for the terrible imposition we placed upon you. I hope that, in the decades to come, you somehow find the fortitude to recover from your unimaginable ordeal.

This was the full quote. A couple of replies later random quotes this poster and posts a "crying with laughter" emoji.

I am trying my best not to have a go at Random. They are replying to posters and have replied directly to me a couple of times. I have a huge amount of empathy for her situation - suffered a massive bleed when I was 10 weeks pregnant in the middle of a night shift as the only trained nurse on duty. I totally get that dreadful internal argument between the personal and the professional. The conditions that particularly drs work under, but also other NHS staff too are terrible. No one should have to work for hours without a break, have no canteen facilities and work for hours exhausted and carrying the responsibility for many patients. It isn't right but that isn't the fault or the responsibility of the patients. That is up to the professional bodies within the NHS to change. The problem here is that senior staff have historically allowed it to continue (either because it suited them or through some very strange rite of passage ideology) and also because, as we have seen on here, no one is allowed to criticize the NHS or find any fault with the system or anyone that works within it.

I am on the fence about the OP - possibly a bit questionable but HCPs could have replied genuinely and honestly along the lines of 'personal conversation not great but....' and maybe tried to have explained what many patients never see happening behind the scenes. My real discomfort followed the post that I have quoted above. None of us like to be criticized at work but I guess my view is that as a professional there is no need for such a comment.

doublehelix · 14/03/2018 01:44

And sympathies to random - that sounds awful. Take your time to heal.

lakeshoreliving · 14/03/2018 01:50

Paperwork and discussions OP, that sounds like record keeping and talking about patients. I'm not really seeing the problem, although I would hazard a guess as a non doctor that they will have rather too much paperwork for their own sanity. There are good and not so good in all professions but I can't believe you are trying to suggest that A&E doctors are spending all their time twiddling their thumbs, if you are suggesting they should have more admin support so they are less bogged down in paperwork that may be true I don't know. They were super efficient when my DD was taken in with a broken arm in a lot of pain and it needed surgery in the pm. The inefficient part was the discharge from the ward and that was because the doctor was too busy dealing with emergencies to sign off the paperwork. As someone living in the states at present, be grateful for and look after the NHS, you don't want the alternative.

SweetieBaby · 14/03/2018 01:53

No longer a nurse because the auto immune disease I have has now caused me to develop enteropathic arthritis. Multiple joints affected so that I can't lift, stand, carry anything. Had a failed back surgery to try and relieve the pain means that I've now had to have a device implanted in my spine. Currently awake because my latest treatment is giving me horrendous side effects.

nocoolnamesleft · 14/03/2018 01:53

Actually, no. Senior staff have no power. Believe me, I have tried to improve things for my juniors, for my team, for my patients. Trying to do so has pretty much finished me off. Doing similar has cost some very valued colleagues their jobs. Hence so many people keeping their heads down.

With regards to the posting you quote (thanks), it is unfortunate that the bile black medical humour that is the only weapon of survival we have left doesn't always translate well into the outside world. That doesn't read to me as someone who doesn't care about their patients, it reads as someone who is being broken by caring too much. But not perhaps prudent to post it in a non-medical forum, where some people may well not read it in that light.

turnipfarmers · 14/03/2018 01:56

Are you Jeremy Cunt ? Biscuit

frogsoup · 14/03/2018 01:57

"I don't think he was attaching the op personally."

Of course he bloody was Shock That exchange did not cover anyone in glory, but least of all Paddy.

You also seem determined to suggest that I have a kind of generalised hatred of doctors, despite me being crystal clear several times a) that that wasn't the case and b) telling you very precisely what experiences have led me to be wary of the way in which CERTAIN doctors view patients, and which I heard echoes of on this thread. Like I said, I've also met many fantastic, phenomenally talented and empathetic doctors, some of whom saved my life and that of my family. How many times would you like me to say that? But it's not going to stop me calling out what I see as beyond-the-pale attitudes, and it does not impugn your integrity as a profession for me to say that some doctors have questionable attitudes towards patients. It really ought to be possible to criticise elements of the medical profession without you as a doctor crying 'you hate us all, and you'll never change your mind whatever I say!'

nocoolnamesleft · 14/03/2018 01:58

I've realised I got distracted from the OP's original question, and the answer to that I meant to post.

Let us just pick one example. On one occasion I spent over 4 consecutive hours, from about 3am onwards, sitting at a desk in A&E, filling in paperwork, and computer forms. Whilst nurses brought me cups of tea and toast. It probably looked like I was ignoring the adult patients.

Only I'm not an A&E doctor. I'm a paediatrician. And I was completing the very extensive paperwork about everything we had tried to do over the previous couple of hours. And recording my conversations with the parents. And the police. And I couldn't take the paperwork away, as other people also still needed it. There was no other work space to use.

I'd started work at 9am the day before, worked until 10pm, and been called back 1am ish. I would be working until at least 5pm. But I had to sit and do that paperwork. And do it really thoroughly. And contact lots of people. And send off many samples. And double check the recently changed local procedures on the intranet. And check in with my juniors, and see if they were okay. And we all really needed those cups of tea. Because the child had died.

Please don't just judge us on the bit you get to see.

frogsoup · 14/03/2018 02:06

And no, it really isn't funny to say to somebody "we’ll continue to help you and your family, no matter what gross personality defects and lack of appreciation you seem to possess." It's a bloody offensive comment and I'm totally shocked that anybody would seek to defend it.

SweetieBaby · 14/03/2018 02:21

And that nocoolnames is the type of reply that the OP should have received. Doublehelix has written a really good post also.

If no one ever tries to explain how will members of the public ever understand? Just because they don't know, because they haven't experienced it doesn't mean that they are lacking in intellect or intelligence.

And I get the "gallows humour" - but I bet, for the most part, people outside of the profession would be shocked or upset by it.

We've had posters on other threads admonish other members for advising people not to go to A and E because they obviously aren't ill enough. Rightly, some posters explain that attitude may be dangerous and one day someone in real need will be put off from getting help. That is how this post read to me "as drs we are superior to you and you should remember that we are more intelligent to you and you must never question or criticize me".

I hope you all have peaceful shifts tonight/tomorrow. It is no doubt the hardest job in the world but just sometimes it can be the absolute best job, and one that I was always privileged to do.

randomuntrainedcuntowner · 14/03/2018 07:05

What is actually laughed at was "sorry you are over your unimaginable ordeal" because it sounds like the OP received good care with a positive outcome.

I too could fail to see the issue, as could many on this.

I thought it was funny. I can still sleep at night. I'll lose sleep over people who genuinely have had bad or frightening experience and focus on reflecting on those, trying to make their experience better or learn from those. But I fail to see what the OP was getting her knickers in a twist about and I won't apologise for that.

I am truly sorry your health problems have stopped you nursing. Being an hcp is a very physically demanding job so I understand how you couldn't continue when not in optimal health.

I'm bowing out now. Got more important things to focus on rather than try to defend to apparent failings of my profession as a group. Hopefully if I do that now I can reserve the tiny amount of optimism and goodwill I have left.

HariboIsMyCrack · 14/03/2018 08:34

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.