To ask what A&E docs do when they are not with patients?

[coffeeforone]

I recently spent a night in the children’s section of my local A&E, and spent some time observing the docs/nurses work whilst DS was asleep on a monitor.

There were 4 nurses and 2 doctors sat behind a long desk (plus a registrar that seemed to pop in and out occasionally - busy elsewhere I assume).

It wasn’t especially busy. We were there for 6 hours and in total about 5 or 6 children came in and were seen by one of the docs (after waiting about 3 hours). After triage, we waited about 3 hours to be seen by a doctor. It seemed like they had an awful lot of paperwork/discussions, but didn’t have much time to consult with the actual patients. I did wonder what was taking up all their time. AIBU to think they could have had a more efficient system?

Op as a matter of interest what is your occupation? are you expected to act as an automaton in your profession?
Clearly there is a lot more going on behind the scenes in A&E ( and indeed in other hospital departments) to which you have no insight
Drs and other HCPs are only human and have feelings and limits too, something which some entitled people seem to overlook

Haribo yes absolutely. What is it with the need for doctors to constantly assert their great intelligence compared to everybody else?! Somebody earlier in the thread (i'm guessing also a doctor) also felt it necessary to confirm how intelligent and brilliant doctors are compared to the OP.

Paddy just confirms my sense that, for all that most doctors are undoubtedly committed and hardworking beyond the call of duty, some of them also have a serious arrogance problem. You are not higher beings, and plenty of your patients have equal - or indeed greater - intelligence and education than your own. Also, being very good at passing exams does not, alas, guarantee either emotional intelligence or empathy. Juvenile comments questioning the cleverness of a perfectly polite and reasonable-sounding poster demonstrate this rather well. You do the reputation of your profession no favours here.

Nurse here. 'Admin' for each patient can literally take an hour or two per patient. Firstly you may need to look up each patients medical history and prescribed medication (obviously some patients may be able to tell you this verbally, but even in those cases you will need to write it down on their hospital paperwork). Then you have to spend time phoning and liaising with different departments to organise medical investigations and transfers. Then there's the time needed to look up test results on the IT system. Then once patients have been seen you need to write a discharge / transfer letter to send to the patients GP to let them know what has happened to the patient during their admission. And that's only for 'straightforward cases where we don't need to liase with social services or similar to organise post discharge care, or report safeguarding concerns etc.

You really do not have to justify what you do! OP is just a goady fucker!

I'm sorry your expectations were not well managed OP, but are you seriously telling me that you have no idea how A&E works?

Most people don't just pop in and out.

Seems like you are still trying to justify your initial comments "well I am being unreasonable but it's not my fault as 111 told me XYZ"

As it so happens my baby is tube fed and if we have any issues with her tube outside of the community nurse hours (9am-9pm) then we need to go to A&E. We have a little card thingy which alerts staff that we need to see triage nurse and don't need the involvement of any Dr provided the reason we go in is her feeding tube of course
She pulled her tube out in the middle of the night last week. We were the only people in paeds A&E and didn't need to see a Dr but still it took a good 45 minutes (10 minutes to replace tube and the rest was paperwork mainly!)

I was bloody chuffed to do a round trip to A&E in just over an hour.

When we arrived the only nurse there was cleaning, I overheard her on the phone to a colleague saying she was due a food break, but she still dealt with us [despite me telling her we'd wait for her to have her break] before taking her break.

I think your un-managed expectations are an excuse really.

Frogsoup - it is hard not to get frustrated when you make massive sacrifices, get into thousands of debt, try your best for your patients and then people like the op come along trying to make out we're being lazy and slow, when they clearly know nothing about what it is like. Most of the comments about doctors being intelligent come from non doctors as far as I can tell, and it is, let's face it, a fact. Jobs with similar levels of education tend to be better rewarded in the private sector - that's what people are pointing out. Doctors are not arrogant people in my experience. You sound a bit bitter.

There are very few things that annoy me more than people seeing a snapshot of an NHS service and concluding 'standing around doing nothing' or 'chatting' when they have no idea what is going on behind the scenes and how procedures work.

Especially when people say the NHS 'isn't free'. It is. Unless you're an exceptionally high earner you will take out more than you put in. People just don't know what it costs. And in my experience most of the 'I pay my taxes' people actually aren't. And they don't seem to have that attitude when it comes to other services like schools, the Police, road maintenance etc.

There seems to be this sense of ownership of the NHS which just isn't the case. You are not a customer of a private company, you elect a government and they commission services. It's the government you need to complain about if you think those services don't meet your expectations.

A lot of people respect and appreciate the NHS but many don't and it's the constant lack of respect, piss-taking and sense of entitlement which causes so many problems.

It makes me lean towards charging (even if nonimal amounts) which I've always been against previously.

They aren't just pointing out that jobs with similar education are rewarded better in the private sector (thought consultant salaries are still pretty bloody good!), they are telling the OP that she is thick and that doctors are much cleverer than her! Not quite the same thing...

More generally, my comment comes from having come into contact with a lot of doctors, both personally, professionally, and as a patient! I'm not bitter as such, but yes I'll admit that I've certainly been frustrated in the past at the tendency of some doctors to assume that their patients are stupider than them. Not all by any means, but enough.
I do think that for some reason (perhaps because of the lack of salary rewards) there's a tendency amongst doctors to big up their intelligence levels and education. I've never heard a solicitor say 'solicitors being intelligent is, let's face it, a fact.'

I'm sorry your expectations were not well managed OP, but are you seriously telling me that you have no idea how A&E works?

I do now, but I didn't before...it was my first ever experience of A&E

You do know a bit more know than when you first posted, taking a pop at the doctors was unnecessary.

Um - well it is a fact. Universities set high entrance requirements to medical schools based on academic achievement. And I'm sure no one would argue that the same goes for solicitors. And again it is mostly non doctors who have pointed this out. I still disagree that doctors are arrogant, especially compared to other professions of similar "rank".

You don't know anyone who has ever been to A&E?

You write as if You have some experience of hospitals, medical terminology, so presumably you did have some knowledge of what happens.

You don't think you need high academic achievements to study law and qualify as a solicitor?!

I'm not commenting on the fact that doctors need high levels of academic achievement - I know that. Lots of professional jobs need high levels of academic achievement. I'm commenting on the apparent need to keep pointing it out, and dismissing others on the basis of their apparent lack of intelligence. On this thread, that is coming from doctors.

And you're a doctor and you're honestly telling me that you've never met an arrogant consultant?!

Can you not read? I said the same goes for solicitors. Just because solicitors also need to be intelligent, doesn't mean that doctors are not.

Sorry that is my first experience of ‘walking in’ to A&E.

Two years ago I actually was blue-lighted to the nearest A&E after a head on 2 x 30mph car crash at 30 weeks pregnant. It was St George’s in London. It was a huge A&E that was an organised chaos of masses of patients and staff. Nothing like my more recent much quieter experience. I was checked by consultant, quickly transferred to the maternity section within the same hospital (still on Oxygen at that point), unborn DS was monitored for 30 mins, then back to A&E, waited 20 mins for an Anti-D injection. In total I was there about 3 hours. That was efficient!

Other than that I don’t recall any friends/relatives telling me of an A&E experience.

OP, there is a lot of faffing about and chatting to all and sundry. Like most of public sector establishments, NHS don't have a clue when it comes to managing time effectively and efficiently.
I will, naturally, be burned as a witch for such comments. Ho humm...

Randum . Can I thank Dr's & nurses for all they do?

I was recently in A&E myself. Although I waited 7 hours to be seen, I knew that there were more urgent cases than me. I was transferred to the Assessment unit and stayed nearly 2 days. The dr's and nurses were rushed off their feet in the AU.

Twice I went to Paeds A&E, years ago. The first time DS2 required stitches on his face and we waited hours for a maxfax dentist to do it. He has barely a scar 16 years later.

The second time he was blue lighted on Christmas day after a call to the then NHS Direct - they called the ambulance. He had really bad croup. He was seen straight away, given calpol & steroids, monitored him for a few hours, then discharged him when the steroids kicked in. He went in on oxygen and left a few hours later clutching a donated Christmas present (a plastic cement mixer which he loved), looking like a different child. I am glad of those few hours of monitoring, and people who saw us leaving probably thought there was nothing wrong with him but he was so ill when he went in.

Again you must be reading a different thread, because lots of non doctors are pointing out that doctors are intelligent people who decide to do a tough and not particularly well paid job. They are not pointing it out to say that patients are stupid, they are doing it to point out that generally doctors have a sense of vocation and generally work hard to do their best for their patients.

Yes I have met a few arrogant consultants but I've met far more arrogant solicitors, estate agents, dentists and patients. More doctors nowadays are adept at keeping their cool whilst taking increasing amounts of shit and abuse from their patients and families as the sense of entitlement generally is increasing. Doctors are not these arrogant creatures who demand respect as they rarely get any.

Wake me up - please direct me to this hospital where you get to stand around and chat because I'd like a job there - it's certainly not the case at my hospital. It's on black alert. I may occasionally discuss a patient with a colleague if that's ok though?

I used to be a nurse. I would sit at the nurses station to do my notes/referrals/look at my NHS emails etc with a cup of tea or water. So many relatives would come up moaning to me or demanding that I answer call bells. They just presume that nurses are on Facebook! This was often at the end of a 12 hour shift.

They also presume that despite all the different uniforms and the uniform guides up on the Internet and the Ward noticeboard, that ALL females in a uniform are registered nurses. Never mind healthcare assistants, speech therapists, dietitians, occupational therapists, physiotherapists, radiographers, ward clerks, cleaners, caterers all wear uniform! And no, it’s not the job of the physio for example to answer call bells and take your mum to the loo! They are transient staff with many patients over several wards.

I do find the general public really unreasonable and the abuse that healthcare workers (or perhaps any public facing worker?) is awful. I work in an office now, on more money, less stress, no unsocial hours and no great British public!

"Universities set high entrance requirements to medical schools based on academic achievement. And I'm sure no one would argue that the same goes for solicitors."

I think if you look more carefully at what you've written you'll find that I can read, yes. But I can see in retrospect that you probably meant the opposite of what you wrote.

I get that you are feeling sensitive about this. But it was a fair question - why are the qualifications and intelligence of doctors even remotely relevant to this thread, and why there are doctors on here calling the OP thick and saying she is clearly much less educationally qualified than doctors? It's not ok. It does seem a bit of a reflex to think the people disagreeing with you must therefore be a bit thick - you just did it to me too!

They also presume that despite all the different uniforms and the uniform guides up on the Internet and the Ward noticeboard, that ALL females in a uniform are registered nurses.

They don't even have to be in a uniform. Female doctors get asked if they're nurses very frequently!

OP, perhaps the doctors who kept you waiting were also busy and efficient looking after other people who may have been in a car accident or seriously ill.

I was referring mainly to the doctor who said 'You are not as clever as you think you are...we’ll continue to help you and your family, no matter what gross personality defects and lack of appreciation you seem to possess.'

OP, perhaps the doctors who kept you waiting were also busy and efficient looking after other people who may have been in a car accident or seriously ill.

Yes I have previously replied admitting that I now realise this was most probably the case. The registrar was floating in and out so may well have had real emergencies to deal with. I had originally questioned the two doctors that were there permanently, but I now understand they were limited in their decision making...the registrar had other priorities than discussing non-urgent patients with them.