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Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

999 replies

loveyouradvice · 08/03/2018 08:33

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

  • one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
  • the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 18:18

Whats the difference?

The polite answer to your question is that a vagina and vulva is created.

But the really honest answer is, why would you care?

A lot of the narrative here is about reducing people to body parts and I really hate that. If you're not actually getting naked with someone, what's in their pants is private and it's a bit dehumanising to ask about it.

You'd never dream about asking me about anything in my pants and I'd never dream of asking you, that normal regard shouldn't go out of the window with trans people.

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 18:20

Yes, I've read that thread. I struggle to see how people trying to shame other people into having sex with them is a problem specific to trans vs lesbian though (although the way they do it will obviously be specific).

For that reason I'm afraid I see that dickheads exist everywhere, and I don't see them being any better or worse for being trans.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 18:24

And 2 people who have (apparently) acted that way from 'the other side' and its proof that both sides are as bad as each other.

It's not two, as we've already discussed, at the meeting last night there was a woman who'd been thrown suspended from the Labour Party for making violent threats, a woman who'd been suspended from the Labour Party for harassment and a woman who's file is with the CPS as the police believe she has been making malicious communications as a hate crime.

I have personally been on the receiving end of a lot of death/rape threats, threats against my fucking children ffs, and I really am not extreme in my views at all. I would say I am fairly middle ground.

I'm sorry to hear that's happened to you and I hope that the police are able to punish the person who did that with the full weight of the law.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 18:27

I don't think she did. It seemed to be very much along the lines of 'people can still say no' which really simplifies it to a ridiculous degree.

No, it doesn't simplify the matter at all. Women are constantly sexually harassed and pressured into sex. That's a terrible thing, it doesn't matter who it comes from.

A lesbian is no less able to turn down an unwanted sexual proposition that a straight woman.

Jayceedove · 16/03/2018 18:30

Datun, thanks again.

I have never not seen the concerns that you eloquently express. Well not since I started looking into this mess a couple of years ago.

But the key to me is that this mess comes from provocation occurring on both sides from small numbers of - and very vociferous media savvy loudmouths.

The GRA itself is not the problem. Otherwise the trans activists would not be desperate to remove its necessary safeguards.

The fact it is protective of those trying to use it rather suggests it works.

So we have to ensure it is not diluted into a dangerous non filter.

Act or no act the arguing will go on.

If trans people are getting through the act when they should not be then the act needs tightening or its application better policed.

But my sense is the ones shouting the loudest about inclusion and rights are the ones motivated to do so because they do not have them and they do not believe they could - or should - follow the restrictions placed on the GRA as now.

They are not going to stop shouting and protesting and doing silly things if the GRA is axed as unworkable.

Instead a lot of suddenly disenfranchised non argumentative and previously quiet and non provoking people will join the fray out of self defence - as already happening - and things will escalate.

As noted I am in favour of better defining the boundaries of and even tightening up the ground rules for a GRC.

As noted earlier insisting on surgery probably is not going to be something any act can legislate. But some better definitions for qualification could be - which could and should be more than just along the lines of self perception and definition.

Nobody I think could accept or should accept a simple statement of identity as sufficient grounds to redefine something that effects that persons status in society and directly impacts on many others around them who have no say in that decision.

That should be a principle of gatekeeping here.

The idea of a provisional GRC with no full recognition until the rules of the granting of a full certificate are met, but that gives some recognition that can demonstrate intent to, say, someone applying for a job, might be a way to pacify both sides whilst retaining or strengthening the ingress to a full GRC.

The concerns about the 'living as a woman for two years' clause which seem to upset some as almost being a parody of femininity is being misunderstood but could be redefined.

It seems assumed it was created as part of the act. It wasn't. It has been a condition of transsexual treatment since at least the 1970s. It was original known as the real life test, which is a far better term

Basically when a person was passed onto a gender reassignment programme after initial assessment by specialist medics and psychoanalysts to rule out other problems they started a two year programme called the real life test.

By this point they had transitioned and started cross sex hormones and there was now a 2 year wait before surgery was considered.

This delay was important for many reasons.

Physically the hormones have to work for a time before surgery can be done.

Mentally the two years allows assessment of whether transition is working to actually resolve the causes of dysphoria. If the person is clearly getting better and mentally stable then the doctors monitoring progress will determine when they are ready to transition surgically - that being an irreversible step, as opposed to what was happening up to then.

Socially the two years were used to demonstrate that the transitioner could live within the real world environment as a productive member of society. They get a job and are not suffering abuse that would destabilise their transition. They contribute positively to the economy rather than drain upon it.

These were all regarded as keys to giving the final go ahead for full transition. You had to be ready and to have improved from how you were before.

Obviously if you were a trans woman this involved 'living as a woman for 2 years' but that was never really perceived in a dress, behaviour, hobbies sort of way as being presumed. Or it was not in the 2 years - 1974 - 76 I was in this period under Charing Cross.

Some people have referred to the rather sexist male ideologies of some of the doctors of that time. They were there. I saw them. But I was never asked to wear dresses or full make up or act in any specific way. I was judged and passed for surgery entirely on the grounds described above.

If that is not how the two year hold as most of us called it then is being interpreted under the GRA then it should be adapted to be because this was the genesis and not what is being perceived.

Datun · 16/03/2018 18:31

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth

Mostly, I have endless patience. But sometimes my frustration leads me to be blunt. I'm a big fan of simplification.

rufus

Yes the second puberty. The excusing of wearing the short skirts fishnets and high heels by saying they didn't get the chance to do it when they were 16. It's just AGP again. And the reinforcement of more damaging stereotypes.

The polite answer to your question is that a vagina and vulva is created.

Again, no it isn't. And neovagina is not a vagina. A vagina is a working organ. And neovagina is a cavity (sorry, I can't think of a more polite word), that needs constant dilation otherwise it closes up. It doesn't self clean, it has no flora and fauna like a vagina, you don't menstuate through it or conceive through it.

Words mean something.

If you go onto any of the threads here about women who have endometriosis, vaginal mesh scandals, post birth injuries, etc, you would understand that not making a distinction between a vagina and a neo vagina is incredibly offensive.

Words have meaning and changing the definition of the word vagina is wrong.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 18:33

I struggle to see how people trying to shame other people into having sex with them is a problem specific to trans vs lesbian though (although the way they do it will obviously be specific).

Its not. But it IS the new way MRA/incel types have discovered and latched onto. And by attaching themselves to 'trans' there is the added bonus of being 'right on' when behaving this way. And because they have attached themselves to 'trans'..you get other people willing to go along with the narrative too. So many people I see arguing do actually go along with lesbian female people refusing to shag transwomen because they are transwomen...are transphobic. Its depressing as fuck.

I acknowledge I may be very biased on this cotton ceiling thing though as my sister is a lesbian who has personally been on the receiving end of this bullshit, and the resulting bullying from others who decided that not wanting to shag male bodied people meant she was transphobic Hmm. As I have spoke about a few times.

For that reason I'm afraid I see that dickheads exist everywhere, and I don't see them being any better or worse for being trans.

No its not worse as the people acting this way claim to be trans. But so many seem to think that being trans in some way makes it not rapey as fuck. Which is just total bull. The whole thing is so widespread in the 'transgender' (note again, not transsexual) community. And some try to minimize both the behaviour, and the concept of it.

Datun · 16/03/2018 18:34

Especially when things like the vagina monologues are shut down or renamed because they are termed exclusionary.

When trans-women like Munro Bergdorf says women are allowed to go to the women's march, as long as they don't talk about their reproductive organs.

When pussycats are transphobic.

The narrative is important. The words are vital.

This is how women are being erased.

Datun · 16/03/2018 18:36

The information that the trans-pressure groups send into schools say things like sometimes lesbians like to get blowjobs.

No. They. Dont.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 18:40

Words mean something.

Exactly, castration means one thing and Gender reassignment/confirmation surgery means something else, why would you use the wrong name, if you didn't want to cause offence?

neovagina

I've got a neohip but I just call it my hip. One of my neighbour's children had to have a part of his ear built up because he was born without a full ear, we just call that 'his ear'.

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 18:40

FFS Datun, saying "can we call it a neovagina?" would have done the trick if you considered the use offensive.

This is exactly what is meant when we talk about objectifying people's bodies with unnecessary and intrusive detail. It's "othering".

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 18:42

A lesbian is no less able to turn down an unwanted sexual proposition that a straight woman.

No a lesbian is no less able to say no. I don't think I ever said that.

But to simplify it all down to 'you can just say no'..ignores so many other aspects involved in this whole insidious idea that lesbian people must be attracted to 'gender identity'. As an example I will say young lesbians. Who are being told that their sexuality is transphobic and thus they should accept corrective rape, they should MAKE themselves attracted to male people, else they are bigoted! Peer pressure is bad enough tbh, without the added pressure of everyone at school turning against you for being bigoted, when all you are doing is being homosexual.

I am going to step away from this aspect of the conversation now as, as I said I have personal experience of this and it is possible I may be biased when discussing this cotton ceiling bollocks. I can also get really riled and I don't want to be ruining what has been so far, a pretty pleasant conversation by me being OTT. But I will say that it is not only a few nujobs who subscribe to this notion that 'gender identity' overrules actual sex. Or who will actually abuse people for being homosexual. Its just another fucking way of being a homophobic idiot. And a rapist too. Yet, it seems widely accepted, or people will pretend it never really happens and its just a few people who think this way. its not a few. Its a depressingly high amount of those who 'identify' as 'transgender'.

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 18:44

But so many seem to think that being trans in some way makes it not rapey as fuck. Which is just total bull.

Yes, I can see that actually. I wholeheartedly agree. I think we need to be reinforcing to women and men everywhere that their choices over who they sleep with are not things by which anyone has a right to judge them.

Christ, I thought we'd come that far at least, but I suppose we've not!

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 18:45

Flowers TheGoalIs

Jayceedove · 16/03/2018 18:49

I often sit here and read post after post about what trans activists are saying and doing and shake my head and regard them as just as plain stupid as all of you are doing.

I am very sure I am not the only trans person feeling exactly the same.

This is not what we want. This is not what we have ever sought. We are not interested in redesigning the universe in the image of a trans goddess nor defy common sense.

Much of it sounds like a Monty Python sketch than real life to me.

It should not be dictating the agenda for what is happening in momentous decisions about the future of society.

Someone should just create an equitable gathering of sane people talking sense and with realistic and non fantastical ideas about what we are saying and what we should do.

And let all these fantasy chit chatters on both sides talk to themselves and redefine the landscape of Narnia whilst those with common sense and a sense of perspective tackle the real world.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 18:50

The GRA itself is not the problem. Otherwise the trans activists would not be desperate to remove its necessary safeguards.

Yes, I would definitely agree with this. I don't really see the issue with the GRA as it stands. The only reason possible for the aggressive push for self-ID, is that 'transgender' people/transactivists do not meet the current critieria to get one. Because..they do not actually have sex dyphoria (which becomes clear in their behavior, an example of which being the screeching about 'female penises' and such). And this alone, should be a reason to be vehemently against giving them what they are wanting. GRCs have to mean something. I am sure most would agree on this. And giving them out to anyone who simply self identifies, means they are effectively useless. Which would surely be to the detriment transsexual people. And will definitely be detrimental to women, if the exceptions are removed also, which is whats being pushed for.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 18:57

Can I say, publicly, I really appreciate the messages of support and good wishes I've had.

Thank you very much.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 16/03/2018 18:58

I agree with Datun (and probably most of us?) that no one should be allowed to make us rename ourselves or our bodies or bits of them or to stop talking about them.

I am definitely a woman not a cis-anything etc etc etc

If that creates discomfort or annoyance I think the annoyed person needs to be educated to back off.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 19:01

This is not what we want. This is not what we have ever sought. We are not interested in redesigning the universe in the image of a trans goddess nor defy common sense.

Also I do think most who are just so exasperated with the nonsensical demands of transactivists do know that its not actual transsexual people who think/want any of this.

I mean, here is an example, from a trans group that were actually consulted on the proposed changes to the GRA.

edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

These are a group, that as I say were consulted on the changes.

I will await your jaw to come up from the floor...its just nonsense! But its genuinely how the majority of transactivists behave/demand/whatever. Its just totally crazy. And mainstream too.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/03/2018 19:02

But the really honest answer is, why would you care?

I dont give a fuck

You said they are different and i asked how

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/03/2018 19:05

still

On that note i am fucking done

do not pm again please

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 19:20

These are a group, that as I say were consulted on the changes.

They certainly have...ummm....unusual views. I was particularly taken for their demands to have all medical licences of anyone who has ever worked in a gender clinic revoked, followed their demand for medical training so that they can carry out surgery on each other.

One of most 'interesting' aspects of working in politics is that you have to 'consult' everyone. As many will be aware, that consultation process is either 'open', when you have a webpage to take views or you send a request for views to anyone who could possible claim to be, even vaguely, 'interested'.

Some fantastic ideas are obtained during the consultation process and some are jaw dropping in their 'unusualness'.

This group will be on the second pile and I'm fairly sure that normal employment practices will still be in place in the medical profession because we've got laws around things like that.

Datun · 16/03/2018 19:24

still and rat

Castration was used to make a point. Of course it was.

Affirmation surgery can be anything. A boob job. And is deliberately euphemistic. Castration is final.

And no, I'm not going to shut up about women's biology and why it's different to feminising surgery on a man.

I'm not on board with the #NoDebate. Not a bit of it.

When you read the trans-pressure groups literature, sent out to schools, the ultimate result of permanent infertility, no sex drive, prepubescent genitals or genital surgery and medication for life does not get discussed.

Cakes are recommended for coming out parties and unicorns and penguins. And puppies and sweets are taken to pride marches.

Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?
Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?
RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 19:26

Bloody hell, that Tumblr!

Bonkers.

They themselves so state that their aims are radical though; I mean that's the exact word they use about themselves, so "mainstream" doesn't really give this credit for being self-admittedly extreme.

I mean that is definitely on the "far out" end of the spectrum.

But I guess that might be how certain radical feminist ideas are perceived from the outside too, like political lesbianism and all heterosexual sex being rape. (Btw I appreciate the two are not directly comparable).

aRespectableBureaudeChange · 16/03/2018 19:35

No one knows what it 'feel' like to be another person. I do not know what it feels like to be any other woman or man on this planet. Men do not know what it feels like to be female. They can imagine and prefer it and identify with it , but they do not know. Feeling womanly does not make you female.

Creating a vulva or an ear is cosmetic surgical artistry. Changes outward appearance.

Being female is fait accompli at birth.

Every cell tells the fact of whether we are male or female; biologically, men have different bone density etc it is in their DNA.

If we alter outward appearance we haven't changed our DNA. A few facts below from Sex Matters sheet - not "feelings".

• Being biologically male or female is determined by our sex chromosomes in our DNA within every cell of our body, shaping not just the reproductive system we are born with, but our bone structure, cardiovascular system and other biological factors, such as the risk of specific health problems.

• Because the ‘blueprint’ of our sex chromosomes is in our DNA, our sex can be known through examining any of our cells, our blood, saliva, even our bones long after our death.

• Our sex and reproductive organs are sexed. Female sex organs are the ovaries, uterus, vagina and vulva and the male sex organs are the testes, prostate, scrotum and penis, by definition, so there can be no such thing as a ‘female penis’ or a ‘male vagina’.

Adding breast implants, creating a willy etc fall very short of sex organs above - which in fact are there by dint of the fact that every single cell in our body is saying we are one sex of the other.

Rare chromosomal and gestational anomalies can cause some people to be born with ‘intersex’ conditions where the sex organs are ambiguous or not fully formed, which can compromise their reproductive capability.

Intersex is not boys/girls saying I "feel" I am in the wrong body, they have been born with an anomaly which affects their sexual/reproductive function.

If you've got working tackle down there - you're a man, might prefer to present as a woman - but you are male.