Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

Men transitioning get most of the attention (how very surprising!) but nobody can have looked at the Tavistock Gender ID service stats and been unaware that the numbers of teenage girls getting referrals there has gone through the roof in the last few years. It used to be vanishingly rare for girls to be referred for gender dysphoria, now it's not.

Sadly, there's a steady trickle of stories of young people in their 20s detransitioning and going back to living as a woman, having finally come to terms with having a female body, and in many cases also with being lesbian. Some of them were on testosterone, so as a permanent reminder of that time they will always have a very deep voice and possibly facial hair. In a few cases they will have had surgery so won't be able to have children or breastfeed.

I don't pretend to understand gender dysphoria, having (fortunately) never experienced it, but taking hormones and getting surgery is such a radical step that I can't see how it can possibly be ethical to allow teenagers to access them, at a time when their brains are still maturing, and especially when a great many of them have diagnosed mental health problems, or they're on the autistic spectrum, or they've experienced sexual abuse. Instead of giving them support for these other issues and therapy to come to terms with things, in the US and Canada there appears to be a fast track to hormones and surgery instead. I hope we never end up that way.

NordicNobody.... what an excellent post.... I think you are probably spot on....

What is sad is that the media don't recognise this and attempt to create a more balanced viewpoint...

I do not doubt that they are out there and it is good to hear some of their voices on here - thank you....

I know quite a few. They're just getting on with it. It's not as 'interesting' I think for the magazines, there's no glamming up, looking 'fabulous' etc. Most of the transmen I know look and dress like older teenage boys ( just cos they're generally smaller and still more 'feminine' looking feature wise than non-trans men). And without exception before being trans they were butch-ish lesbians, also not considered a sexy subject for telly/magazines etc.

Hiding from MN'ers I suspect.

I read on pistonheads that they're all faking it just to get into TopMan's changing rooms to abuse men anyway ...

I know 2, both teens.

I know a couple. Both of which were lesbians and very butch before they came out as trans, so neither was a big surprise. They've had top surgery and hormones, but I understand having surgery to 'create' a penis is much more difficult that the reverse so neither have opted for that.

I think there has long been a grudging acceptance of women being tomboys, and even wearing men's clothes, while perhaps men who want to explore their feminine side are more quickly labeled as being 'confused'.

I know 2, both in their 30’s, both lovely people. I don’t know any men transitioning.

The only trans person I know personally is female to male. He's only at the start of transitioning though.

*A friend of mine is transitioning. He's a lovely, genuine man who was clearly extremely unhappy as a woman.

I don't think he'd touch MN with a barge pole though with all the stuff on here. And MN is the poorer for that.*

That's a shame he wouldn't come here. There are other trans people on here and they are most welcome in the debate. No one is going to be anything other than respectful. Voices like your friend's one matter.

I don't think they are so visible because physically speaking FTM transitions are usually more... trying to think of word that is non-offensive, apologies if this comes out wrong... more blend-in-able. From a surgical point of view it is easier to make a woman look like a man than to make a man look like a woman.

Also I think women find it easier to adopt traditionally male habits than the other way around, so there is less need to transition. (A woman can wear "male" clothes and nobody bats an eyelid, a man wears a dress and stands out immediately.) There are more things a woman can do than a man, and so there is less incentive to change gender. What I mean is, a man who transitions to female gains more freedoms by doing so, whereas a woman who transitions to a man gains fewer and loses more.

I know of one person only, young female transitioning to male. But she's decided not to have full surgery and still has female genitalia although she's had hormone treatment and otherwise lives and looks like a male. I personally think it's more to do with his/her sexuality.

There's Ben Can't-remember-his-surname, somewhere on Silicon Valley, I think. Definitely in tech, anyway. He's written about how his work as seen by others as better than his sister's (i.e. his own work from before he transitioned,) and that it is so much easier to be taken seriously now he's a man.

There have been others who've written about how their jokes are more likely to be laughed at and not be spoken over so quickly in meetings and so on after transitioning, but I can't remember any names, nor where I read te articles, and am not at home to be able to check.

I suspect most of them are just getting on with life. I think probably quite a few teens currently thinking about it are actually just lesbians, but it's currently more acceptable to be trans. Which is not a good thing.

Historically, there have always been a handful of women who have lived as men, sometimes because it was the only way to access professions which barred women, or to fight in armies, sometimes because they were lesbian, and maybe some were gender dysphoric. We'll never know the numbers or reasons in most cases, nor if they'd have bothered if they could have gone into the professions or military or relationships with women if those things had been socially and legally acceptable as women. Nor can we ever know if they'd have ever chosen surgery, had it been an option.

I’ve seen a lot about both FTM and MTF. More about FTM who have detransitioned though.

I don't think a lot of TRAs are TIFs so their point of view are not picked up by the media.

I don't think they are going out there and demanding that Movember recognise that not all men have prostates. I don't think they are tweeting from a men's refuge on Internatinational Men's Day that men can suck their male clitoris. I don't think they are calling natal gay men transphobes for not wanting to have relationships and sleep with them.

I think they are ignored by the media. I think they are just getting along with their lives.

"No one is going to be anything other than respectful."

Sorry, thats not been my experience on this site AT ALL.

I usually dont read any post with the word "trans" or similar in the title any more because of the stream of "Men are men, women are women, its biology", "were they born with a penis? Then they're male", "bloke in a dress to assault us women in swimming pool bathrooms", "they'll never be REAL women because they didn't go through everything we women did while we were growing up", "girls just need to be told that they aren't trans just because they like playing with toy trucks" comments.

Everyone is allowed their own viewpoint, but the above is my experience of the prevailing site opinion on things.

Storm Treader - that is one of the reasons I have started posting. It is not all like that but there is a lot of fear and loathing about transwomen. Some of it is understandable as I struggle with some of the self defining, daft terminology and expectation of being considered female whilst still having an all male anatomy by choice.

But the best way to help is not to have fights and call people names - so I don't do that. I try to listen respectfully and offer respectful replies to explain from my perspective.

I have no problem with people holding opinions that differ from mine and do not call them bigots. I have been on Woman's Hour - not talking about being trans - and had no issue with Jenni Murray whom I found respectful. So when she got attacked last year I defended her as I think it was an over reaction.

We need to have dialogue not diatribes offered by one to the other.

ChelleDawg - I would be curious to hear you elaborate on why as trans man loses more and gains fewer freedoms than a trans woman.

Not disputing it but have never thought of it from that perspective and so curious.

I have never met any transgender person who is anything like the activists. The growing number of young girls does worry me. My teenagers friends it is mainly trans men.

I usually dont read any post with the word "trans" or similar in the title any more because of the stream of "Men are men, women are women, its biology", "were they born with a penis? Then they're male", "bloke in a dress to assault us women in swimming pool bathrooms", "they'll never be REAL women because they didn't go through everything we women did while we were growing up", "girls just need to be told that they aren't trans just because they like playing with toy trucks" comments.

I'm honestly not trying to be disingenuous here, but none of these statements are remotely "transphobic". They speak to material reality.

The secret perv blokes in dresses rhetoric on here is a bit OTT though. Turns me off from reading it.

I'm honestly not trying to be disingenuous here, but none of these statements are remotely "transphobic". They speak to material reality

Those statements are textbook transphobia. You should probably reexamine your own prejudices.

I haven't read all the thread but I know at least two F to M. Both very young.

Rumpledfaceskin we do have to consider the whole picture though, from people such as Jayceedove, to the sex offenders (male) who are transitioning in prison. You can't just forget about the 'perves in dresses' when it comes to changing the law re sex segregated places.

I completely agree. I thinking that’s what MN is very much missing, the whole picture.

I'm honestly not trying to be disingenuous here, but none of these statements are remotely "transphobic". They speak to material reality.

They really don't. Most sex offenders are regular straight men wearing regular, straight men clothing, there simply isn't a big spate of men dressing up or claiming to be women so that they can attack women, sadly they just don't need to do that.

Girls playing with tonka trucks, generally, aren't told that they are trans. Some madster, might have said something once but that doesn't make it endemic.

There isn't a single common female experience of growing up or being exposed to sexist ideas. Some girls grow up with rigid gender expectations, some don't. David Reimer was raised as a girl, it didn't make him a girl.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

There's more to the female experience that 'it's biology'. Some women even have a different biological reality. You can either think that gender is a social construct or that is not but you can't claim both at the same time.