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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

999 replies

loveyouradvice · 08/03/2018 08:33

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

  • one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
  • the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Jayceedove · 16/03/2018 13:22

Apologies for that long ramble. I have been awake most of the night trying to figure out the reasons why there is such polarity between some women and trans women.

And why I understand what is being said on the other thread where exclusion is sought and yet feel horrified by it.

Bottom line I think is that - quite rightly - women see a need for biological protections against men intruding into personal spaces.

And regard transgender 'men' as wanting to invade these spaces out of disrespect.

I accept that there should be - and are - exclusions within the GRA for such spaces.

And I can also see - and indeed share - the concerns over giving access to any of the non protected spaces to someone who has not physically transitioned nor wishes to do so and simply wants to express a personal gender identity.

So with my personal head on I think - yes - they are right they should be excluded from changing rooms, etc, not because they are all perverts - course not - but because you just don't know what they mean by identifying.

Yet with my trans head on I feel ashamed at what looks like me saying they are less trans than me because I know this is not so. They are just different. And that is not fair reason to be exclusive with any group of society.

Especially as I am thinking that I do not want to be excluded from places like changing rooms or hospital wards and these women are saying I am just like all the others and yet I am feeling the same need to exclude as they are. So long as it does not include me.

So is that just total self protection?

Actually I think it is because transsexuals are viewing this biologically - as are women - so we see gender identity as a fuzzy definition upon which to put at risk intimate contact.

I don't have any answers as to solutions other than I feel the act as it stands broadly works as long as it.

Provides the right for exclusion of all transgender people from some agreed specific instances such as smear testing and rape centres. As in we can be excluded within the law by a decision of that individual or location.

I think that is more or less what is happening now but if not then it should be tightened to make it an option to exclude or include and not a right within the act.

But for more generic things such as changing rooms and hospital wards it should be a right within the act. Because the only alternative is to either define by DNA or create third spaces as some are suggesting.

And they will simply transfer to transsexuals the problems being fairly argued and removed from women.

So the only workable solution that might be acceptable to women and existing holders of a GRC probably has to be that the act is somehow strengthened around the degree of physical change required for someone to be granted a certificate.

That, I know, would not go down well. But it seems a reasonable place to start looking for compromise.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 16/03/2018 13:24

“What is no one on the feminist board saying 'stop, that isn't want I've signed up for, I just don't want a men's sexual rights law'? “

Well I’m perfectly happy to say that....

I think Datun has a different view. But will let her speak.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 16/03/2018 13:27

Jayceedove Brew after your rough night.

It’s a funny old world.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 13:30

@TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole

The issue is, it is not feminists who brought this fight to the table, it is not feminists with unreasonable demands. But it is framed that way.

Trans people didn't bring the new laws to the table either. An unpopular Government, without a workable majority, saw what happened in Ireland over the same sex marriage referendum and though that any equality law was good publicity.

A tiny minority of feminist extremist and a tiny minority of trans rights activists, when to war on Twitter, both behaving like thugs, and now the extreamist feminists have frightened normal feminists on Mumsnet into believing the views of those TRAs are mainstream.

Normal women are being told that trans women will be scaring their children in Sainsburys wearing naked latex body suits and demanding to give them smear tests without their permission, and awful things will happen to them if they refuse.

Normal women, those raising children, holding down responsible jobs and keeping all the balls that normal women keep in the air, while still standing their ground, are being told that they will be too cowered to turn down a HCP that they don't want. Women aren't like that, women aren't weak and stupid and it's no part of feminism to suggest that they are.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 13:31

Here's the thing, Jaycee is a transsexual woman, if no one is questioning her right to be a transsexual woman and is accepting of the idea that a transsexual should be treated with dignity and respect, why is she being called 'he' and 'a man' when she talks about being sexually assaulted in the feminist board.

I don't agree with deliberate 'misgendering' of actual transsexual people. In most cases. like certainly not in Jaycees case, but ask me to call a multiple rapists a woman and no fucking chance. But, why is it my job to police other peoples language? I don't see that it is.

What many call 'misgendering' I see as accurate sexing most of the time tbh. Like, Lily Madigan. Fully intact male, in a position meant for women, doing nothing for women except trying to get them kicked out of the Labour party. Like hell would I call this guy she. But MN has said we have to. So I get round this by using 'they' instead. I certainly do not see them as women at bloody all. They are a fully intact male misogynist.

So yeah, guess my own opinion on this is a bit all over the place. Maybe it should be all or nothing. But I am not the thread police, and I will use preferred pronouns for most people (ie, the average transperson on the street) but not in some situations. So why should I police other womens posts, when I am not exactly consistent myself?

Datun · 16/03/2018 13:33

Stillscreaming

God, this is exhausting.

The reason why people will state JC a man, is to highlight that the shared characteristic of the cohort who present a threat to women is that they are male.

Whatever thoughts they have, whatever condition they are going through, that is the shared characteristic.

The discussion evolves as to how you can subset that to protect JC and women, but leave out the men who are not like JC.

The conclusion is, you can't, because the only recognisable characteristic is that they are male.

We segregate after the risk assessment that says it's 98% accurate purely on the basis of sex.

I can't tell you the number of threads I have been on, where this issue is endlessly discussed.

People like JC put their point across, everyone gets it. They really do.

All of them coming from the same premise how can this work?

The reality to this is that any possible claim to womanhood, apart from biology, is solely at the say-so of the person involved.

This isn't a new discussion.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 13:35

Trans people didn't bring the new laws to the table either.

Transactivists did though. Transactivists lobbied for these ridiculous laws..twisting statistics beyond all recognition, abusing people into silence, guilt tripping, pretty much everything from the abusers handbook to get their own way. And yet its women who are in the wrong for saying that they do not want the ridiculous laws.

Lets ignore that many many transsexual people do not want self-ID either..

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 13:38

@Datum

I've seen Posie Parker's tweets, she's gone much further than you are claiming. To suggest that the police are involving themselves because of a disagreement or because someone has been a bit free with their views isn't true.

Plenty of people here on MN have said that they disagree with that mother's behaviour. None of them have the police at their doors.

You've just said those things, they haven't even been taken down by NM, no one has complained, no one minds what you think. Everyone thinks that you are entitled to your opinion. You really do have to go much, much further to break the law and, on some level you know that, because you are still saying those things.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 16/03/2018 13:38

offers Datun Brew

Thanks for contouring to answer the same questions for us newbies.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 16/03/2018 13:40

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole
stillscreaming.

Seriously, where did this all come from? Is there any neutral record/history?

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 13:43

@thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth

Well I’m perfectly happy to say that....

The point is that no one is saying that, most of us don't find the feminist board a place for reasoned discussion. They only allow one view and are very aggressive with anyone expressing another view.

Now that's allowed and within the rules of MN and I'm not asking for those rules to be changed but to claim that it's a balanced discussion about changes in legislation is wrong.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 13:45

Seriously, where did this all come from? Is there any neutral record/history?

No idea. I was blind, totally blind to the fact that trans no longer meant transsexual until a year or so ago. It seems to have been changed, deliberately over time. I thought transgender was just a way of saying transsexual that did not have the word sex in it Blush I thought women were just being big meanies for pushing back against the (subtle at the time) change of lanaguage and such. My god I have came a long way since then.

No idea where self-ID came from.

What I really really want to know is quite how transactivists have come so far in such a short space of time. I mean, even gay marriage, which literally did not affect anyone at all, has only just been legalized. Yet these huge changes are seriously considered..out of nowhere.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 16/03/2018 13:47

“Women aren't like that, women aren't weak and stupid and it's no part of feminism to suggest that they are.”

I did feel anxious and worried by everlasting love’s post suggesting that the police were monitoring this thread at her request and wondering whether I was one of the people she had reported to the police. I wondered whether this person might really have the power to wreck my life if I decided that, on balance, I agreed with Jenni Murray. Ihave had experience of a civil court case against an abusive corrupt policeman who continually accused me of criminal offences and spoke as if he had sufficient influence to get me arrested so I may be a little sensitive.

Just saying that’s how I felt.

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 13:49

Jaycee I'm afraid that I don't think that the law is able to oblige people to physically transition. It can obligate them to have a medical assessment, or some sort of consultation with a professional or a panel; so it can say that people with a particular condition or who are deemed to be within a particular category are eligible for a GRC, but I think it would be in murky ethical waters for the GRC to be a perceived reward in exchange for surgery/hormones.

I've been quite strident on it in the past in fact. Hang on, I'll dig up one of my old posts....

The thing is it is deeply and profoundly unethical to essentially force someone to have major and risky surgery to prove to everyone that they have a certain medically recognised condition.

Surgery is a massive deal that is not right for everyone, and you literally cannot oblige someone to have it just to fit you idea of what their "condition" may or may not require.

You have a chronic pain condition but don't want to have invasive surgery to correct it? Not real pain then. Want me to believe you're in pain? I'll strap you to the table. Doctors tell you an amputation could take your pain levels from 8/10 to 4/10 but you'd rather have more pain and your hand than 50% less pain? Not your choice. Oh, and if you don't have the surgery we won't believe you have any pain at all so... no pain meds for you!

It's not right, it's not ethical and "obligatory" surgery would never exist within a civilised society.

But mostly I don't think it's ethical for someone's decisions over their bodily autonomy to be linked directly to financial, legal or social advantage in any context, because it's coercive.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 13:50

They only allow one view and are very aggressive with anyone expressing another view.

Absolutely the opposite from my experience. I am constantly seeing regular there almost bhegging for someone to come and argue the opposite POV. Rather than just plopping 'you are all transphobies' and disappearing.

Rat has finally started to actually stick around on the issue, and whilst I am totally polar opposite in views to her, I am so glad she sticks around. She has made me think a bit more on some issues. I wish there were more like her, who actually try to argue their POV, but there just does not seem to be. There has been you on this thread too...if there are more of you, then actually arguing your points would surely neutralize the feminism section somewhat, no?

I mean, even actual transsexual posters seem to be against self-ID. Seems to be a pretty clear consensus. Trans posters do not notice this apparent rampant transphobia that is in FWR? I find that a bit odd.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 16/03/2018 13:51

Still,

Brew for you too

I think more Brew would help us all.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 13:52

Sorry for all the typos in that, trying to type very fast as need to go out in a sec Blush

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 13:52

...abusing people into silence, guilt tripping, pretty much everything from the abusers handbook to get their own way. And yet its women who are in the wrong for saying that they do not want the ridiculous laws.

I've been very clear that the extreme ends of both sides of the argument are behaving like thugs. You are totally free to say you don't changes in the law, I'd be the first person to respect you right to say that.

However, when you start saying that it's alright to call people 'parasites', challenge their medical diagnoses, defend people who have been suspended by the Labour Party or questioned by the police for threats of violence, malicious communication or harassment, then I think that you're either behaving like those you've described or you defending those who behave that way.

Datun · 16/03/2018 13:52

Stillscreaming

Yes she might have said more in terms of volume. But those are the two things that form the complaint to the police.

Thanks Jane. Slurp.

There is so much to this issue. Protecting people like JC, is only part of it.

Protecting women and their right to speak, amidst all the threats and violence has now become paramount.

And don't get me started on the transing of children.

Barely a day goes by without someone posting that their child, or family member has now come out as trans.

The potential result of which would be lifelong infertility, no sex drive, permanent medication, the genitals of a prepubescent child for the rest of their life, or full genital surgery.

That was a D list celebrity who posted a picture of their child looking at dresses and said oh wouldn't it be great if he was trans.

It's gone so far beyond a question of rights.

It really, really needs to segmented and talked about.

it's only just reaching the public awareness.

So all these arguments that have been had on here for three or four years are being rehashed.

And the one thing that I vehemently agree with JC about, is dragging it back to gender dysphoria.

It was the cornerstone of being trans. And it is getting lost in the furore of aspiration.

Gender dysphoria is a real and crippling condition. It's not cool, it's not a lifestyle choice.

And it's being utilised and hijacked left, right and centre.

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 13:53

Just saying that’s how I felt.

Brew for you too thanksjanes

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 16/03/2018 13:53

Brew for Rat also.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 13:57

However, when you start saying that it's alright to call people 'parasites', challenge their medical diagnoses, defend people who have been suspended by the Labour Party

Hold up. Defending people who have been suspended by the Labour party (or who are under questioning for criticizing Suzie greens decision to castrate her child at 16 when it is infact illegal to do that in this country until 18)is NOT like the other two. At all.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 13:59

People are being suspended left right and centre. For very odd reasons. So to say that anyone who defends these people are basically extremists? Nah. Fuck that.

Now i really do need to go Blush

I will be back in a few hours though, enjoying this conversation

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 13:59

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole it's funny you should say that because I haven't been back to posting on the feminist forum on anything except completely un-trans-related threads following what I felt was a pretty nasty seeing-off on this linked thread and others :(

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 13:59

I did feel anxious and worried by everlasting love’s post suggesting that the police were monitoring this thread at her request and wondering whether I was one of the people she had reported to the police

I'm sorry to hear that and I'm not surprised. i don't agree with what Everlasting said, I can see that she was frustrated and hurt. In all honesty, I think that the police listening in on us is about as likely as seeing anyone in a latex naked bodysuit in the high street.

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