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Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

999 replies

loveyouradvice · 08/03/2018 08:33

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

  • one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
  • the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Jayceedove · 16/03/2018 12:03

Everlasting, yes the tax and pension issue is a pain. It took me six months to get my winter fuel allowance because everyone kept shunting the paperwork to the wonderful anonymous team in Newcastle that handle trans people and means you cannot fill out any tax forms or such on line because they cannot cope!

This is the same government that aims to let you change gender by filling in a form on line somehow.

That anonymous team to protect your trans identity sends out letters with a handwritten scrawl on the envelope telling everyone not to open it (an invitation to do so if you are so inclined) and that it only must be opened by the GR team. I am sure nobody at the tax office has a clue this means the person inside is gender reassigned from that cryptic name.

So sensible they did not pick anything obvious to give the game away like Section 1234.

The chap who runs the GR team is wonderful and helpful. I have got to know him better than my cat in the past few years given how often he has had to sort something out.

He seems quite harassed at times because everything gets passed to him from other departments who are not relevant to any GR matters. Numbers are rising too so he works long hours.

I do think he will take early retirement if they announce self ID.

My first run in with them was some years ago when I did a TV show for the BBC and, not to my great surprise, some tabloid did another expose story about me behind my back.

That was not the real worry but, as far as I can ascertain, the same person who accessed my birth certificate (this was pre GRA) and also many other records linked to my parents as part of the story they sold to the tabloid contacted the tax office and the BBC and tried to claim I was living under two names given these decades old records and so committing tax fraud.

Of course, happily the 'investigation' did not take long as my status has been always known by Newcastle and all my working life (outside a job as a secretary I had for a year pre transition) has been under my name post transition. And, of course, they knew all of this and my records were entirely accurate and up to date.

But this just shows that documentation and certificates and records can be used to try to damage trans people by unscrupulous souls if you do not have some reasonable protections built in.

The person who did all this was protected and neither the tax people, nor the BBC - let alone the tabloid they sold their lies to in the first place - were willing to tell me who they were. So I still have no idea.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 16/03/2018 12:06

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tough-millwall-cave-in-to-transgender-bullies-nltnkpv3d

'A Millwall spokesman said the event “was cancelled mutually with the organisers. We were pulled into a drama that we didn’t really feel we should be part of.” '

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 12:10

..it was interesting that everyone was given a preprinted card on what to do if they are arrested. Which friendly lawyer to call, what to say, and what not to say. Standard practice, apparently.

That is absolutely standard practice at a demonstration and has been for the thirty years I've been waving banners for women's rights. They had them at Greenham, the miners' strike, section 28 demos, everywhere. I've never been anything but a peaceful protestor but I've always taken the card of the sympathetic solicitor who's number is passed around. It's totally normal.

Addressing male violence is what feminism is for.

That's what it's always been about for me but if you check the times, no one acknowledge Jaycee assault, showed any sympathy or treated her like a human being until I mentioned their behaviour on this thread.

We all have our own views on the fundamentals of this subject and that's fine, I respect your right to define what a woman is and to discuss that freely.

However, when a trans woman is talking about her sexual assault, that's not the time to be calling her 'he' him' and 'a man'. If you don't want to acknowledge her legal gender, that's fine, we have lots of non gendered ways to talk about each other but to make the point in that way, when someone is disclosing sexual assault, feels pointlessly nasty to me.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 12:12

@ Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

You've given me a link behind a paywall which I suspect you can't actually see either because you haven't quoted all of it.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 16/03/2018 12:17

Of course I haven't quoted all of it. MN would pull my post if I did on copyright grounds. Anybody can register to see a few Times articles a week for nothing by signing up with an email address, so you could do that if you want to see the whole thing. I've pasted in the Millwall quote from the article in its entirety. It's an Andrew Gilligan article from the Sunday Times, in fact.

Datun · 16/03/2018 12:28

Stillscreaming

when someone is disclosing sexual assault, feels pointlessly nasty to me.

Jaycee's sexual assault comment was followed by a woman disclosing their own sexual assault. In the context that almost all women are reluctant to report sexual assault.

Her comment was only addressed in the context of reporting, too.

It was the entire basis of the particular argument being had.

All highlighted by the I Believe You campaign and the MeToo campaign.

No one was needlessly calling anyone names.

The crux of the discussion was what defines sex. You have to use words, for that.

I've been to four or five of these meetings now, and have never considered that I might be arrested. Because it never occurred to me that I would be doing anything illegal.

So, did you go to the meeting? And do you think that the women at the House of Commons should have been banned from speaking?

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 12:30

Just FYI, he's NOT the Brexit Guy, he's this guy, of gay marriage is "barking mad" and "most parents would prefer their parents not to be gay" fame

No. The Brexit guy was spammed, when this was another David Davis. Brexit guy is david Davies, and his office was spammed.

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 12:32

Oh got you GoalIs.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 12:33

In light of my posts above about censorship, do you still have the opinion that the women at that meeting should not have been allowed to talk?

I've said a number of times that I'm a fan of freedom of speech or more accurately, the right to self expression.

However, while looking for the Millwall statement, I've found that two more of your speakers have been in a bit of bother for going further than expressing their views.

Linda Bello has been suspended from The Labour Party for threatening violence against trans people and another speaker has been suspended from Labour for harassment against trans people.

Views are fine, even having a speaker who says that women can't have sex with men is fine but when those views slip over into threats and harassment, we need to draw a line.

Datun · 16/03/2018 12:36

Stillscreaming

You're asking for lots of confirmation, clarification, and evidence of links to a fair amount of issues here.

You don't sound particularly belligerent about this, to me. A little maybe, but that's because we're having a 'debate'.

I just wonder if it's a good idea for you to take a quick skim over some of the threads on the feminist board.

All these issues are discussed, endlessly. With women wondering, talking, disagreeing, all over the shop.

People wandering on saying why is this such an issue? What does it all mean? Why are you so bothered about it? Can't you just live and let live, etc.

I wouldn't have mentioned it, but for the fact that the questions you are asking, have been asked and answered already. And disagreed with! And agreed with.

It's very topical. And there are a lot of different opinions.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 16/03/2018 12:38

Stillscreaming, you should read the transcript of Venice Allan's interview at Labour Party HQ. It's like something out of 1984. I haven't listened yet to the Jennifer James audio recording of her own similar interview but I understand it's just as bad. Re Linda Bellos, a remark was taken out of context in that case, I believe. The Labour Party is haemorrhagin women members over this issue.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 12:39

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tough-millwall-cave-in-to-transgender-bullies-nltnkpv3d?shareToken=293e6c99da13a3bca0d8190d8568ded0

Open link to the Millwall statement

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 12:44

Just out of curiosity I'm not seeing Still asking any questions particularly; what is it she would be expected to learn from the feminist boards (that she obviously already reads) that she has shown she does not already?

It's very topical. And there are a lot of different opinions.

There are certainly many variations of the same "gender critical" opinion...

Datun · 16/03/2018 12:45

Linda Bello has been suspended from The Labour Party for threatening violence against trans people and another speaker has been suspended from Labour for harassment against trans people.

That's why you need to look really. You're being fed information entirely out of context.

Linda Bellos was responding to the speakers corner violence, saying let them try that with me I'll fight back, or words to that effect.

It was a defensive comment, not an offensive comment. But it's been spun.

She is a well known radical, black lesbian feminist.

She has fought tirelessly for women her whole life.

Two women Labour Party members have been suspended for expressing their views.

Their exit interviews are online, in full. They have been questioned about what they were thinking. Thought crime.

Think about it.

Read the interviews. One is audio.

The women were calm, rational, and amply able to justify their viewpoints.

They have shared the interviews with anyone who cares to listen. They are not a hiding single thing.

(Again, both these links are on the feminist boards).

Jayceedove · 16/03/2018 12:46

Datun, I guess the differences are just too great on the other thread.

I do get the sex and gender thing, of course. I doubt anyone doesn't. Though some will be more scared of saying it, I suppose.

But as Italian says there seems a fundamental difference between the (now seemingly disallowed term) transsexuals around which the GRA was built and for whom it was unquestionably intended - and the gender non conforming people who form the majority of those now wanting to self identify.

This to me is the heart of the problem. Two things are being squeezed into one with big differences in basis and vast differences in numbers.

You just cannot successfully accommodate both in one act. Not least because the first act was largely waved through by those sceptical of it in parliament because they understood numbers were tiny - as the 7000 registered over 14 years demonstrates.

I think that they were also only minded not to impose some minimum degree of physical transition into the act because of the concept of not wishing to force those who were too old or infirm for surgery to be disenfranchised. That has left a crack in the door which is able to be exploited by those who are not transsexual - who will, almost by definition, transition physically to at least some degree.

Of course the act did bring in some disenfranchising anyway by insisting that couples had to divorce if the act would have created a legal same sex marriage, which was then still not on the agenda and a decade away. So - understandable as that was - a number of people were forced to choose between long term partner and registration. And chose not to be legally registered until gay marriage was legal.

The problem is more complicated because sex and gender may have a specific meaning to some people and a slightly different one to another.

A transsexual was never really talking about gender identity. That's why the term was not transgender. We are often assumed to have developed an identity or socialising normality that is atypical of the sexual biology. In effect meaning it is an acquired belief system or lifestyle expression or a consequence of not being like other boys or girls.

I totally get why that is the obvious assumption. But it was not my experience of what it was like. This is not something that you gradually realise. It really does feel to be innate. And it happens well before puberty or when sexual interactions start, so it is not really rooted in that either.

It feels like a physical problem, hence the determination to physically adapt the body to match up as best as possible. Whilst also completely understanding this will not overprint DNA or chromosomes.

That is why there was a drift away from using the term transsexual, because medicine knew (and we knew) that you cannot change biological sex and so they made us sign that waiver that they were reassigning gender. It was to avoid legitimising something scientifically inaccurate.

But - and this is the important bit I think - in doing so and using the term gender it created the assumption that it was your gender identity that was faulty - based on the starting assumption everyone had that if it was not an obvious anomaly of DNA or chromosomes then it was some sort of delusion or gender confusion.

Now I do actually think it often is and there have been identifiable causes made and this seems to be the basis of the long understood 90% of those with gender confusion who often get by through cross dressing.

However, when you look at the differences between that 90% and the 10% of what were called transsexuals there seem big differences.

The former do seem gender confused or gender fluid and it is about expression and lifestyle and much less if at all about body dysmorphia or whatever you want to call it.

As a result they want to express themselves and are more wide ranging and flexible in presentation and how far they want to go or even in terms of permanence of transition. And very often are not looking for any real transformation outside the superficial.

Whereas the ones who used to be transsexuals are still focused in that direction to shift body as far as practical towards what we perceive ourselves to have somehow been denied. It is not really a confusion of gender but an anomaly of biology that we think has happened.

Hence why many who are opposed to all this struggle. Because they ask transsexuals to define why they have a female gender identity and what exactly is this and we cannot answer any more than they do because to us that is not what is going on.

Yet they see the ones who express themselves through gender identity and see the flamboyance and stereotypical cross gender identity they have created and the lack of physical transition as a necessity and presume this is what is going on.

With everybody.

And the more I think about this the less I am sure that they are right.

I really do think now two quite separate things are going on here with very different origins, very different desires for outcome or needs of expression and a huge imbalance in numbers too.

Absolutely all people in both sides of this divide should be treated with respect and facilitated as best as possible.

But I am now definitely of the mind that you cannot do so under one single act because it simply cannot cover both groups whilst protecting the broader interests of society, especially women.

I don't have any answers as tp

Datun · 16/03/2018 12:52

RatRolyPoly

She questioned the word parasite because she didn't have the context. She's asked for the Milwall statement, she has asked for the transwoman HCP story.

There are certainly many variations of the same "gender critical" opinion...

There certainly are! Including those from transwomen themselves. Truscum, for instance, a transwoman, makes for very interesting reading.

Most mumsnetters, not just the feminists, are gender critical to some degree or another.

There is lot of dissatisfaction with quite how gendered society is, particularly for children. The pink brain/blue brain aspect.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 12:54

You're asking for lots of confirmation, clarification, and evidence of links to a fair amount of issues here.

I've asked for one link.

I just wonder if it's a good idea for you to take a quick skim over some of the threads on the feminist board.

I've had a good look on the the feminist board. I'm been an active and vocal feminist for over 30 years and I've done a fair bit of background reading.

I don't have any issue with freedom of speech or the discussion of ideas but I'm uncomfortable when they spill over into malicious communication with police involvement, threats of violence and suspensions for harassment.

That's not free speech, that's hate speech.

When those responsible for hate speech pretend that they are fighting one thing, in this case new laws, when in fact they have a totally different agenda and mislead women into signing a petition organised by a group involved in hate speech, I think that's worth talking about.

What happened with Brexit was that while someone people voted for it because they were informed and knew what they wanted, a significant minority were mislead into thinking that they were voting for something else. I don't want to see that happen with trans rights.

I don't want to see normal, moderate women who don't want new laws fooled into supporting a group with a much more sinister agenda, that they don't actually agree with.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 16/03/2018 12:58

“f only Twitter and the like didn't give such a universally accessible and wide-reaching platform to any nutter with a laptop, things might have been able to be aired before the language and tolerance on both sides of the debate had hit such a low ebb.”

So true.

Datun · 16/03/2018 13:02

Jayceedove

I don't disagree with anything you say there.

Neither do I have a solution. Because the conflict of rights is so stark.

It's an all or nothing situation. My guess is, it will not benefit either you or women, in the long run, whatever they do.

In an effort to placate the trans-lobby, they will fudge the legislation where it can still be exploited.

And, believe me, I do understand the difference. I have merely evolved my stance, on the basis of transactivism. That's all.

It was predicted by several transwomen on here this time last year. That they will get caught up in the objections to transactivism.

They could see it coming, we could see it coming.

If I ruled the world, I would take every single penny that is devoted to transactivism and divert it to research into the causes of gender dysphoria.

The fact is that gender dysphoria is not just irrelevant to transactivism, it seems to have become a dot in the distance to everybody.

And yet it is used relentlessly to justify the activism in the first place.

It's hypocrisy at its finest.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 13:02

But as Italian says there seems a fundamental difference between the (now seemingly disallowed term) transsexuals around which the GRA was built and for whom it was unquestionably intended - and the gender non conforming people who form the majority of those now wanting to self identify.

Indeed.

I don't have any answers as tp

I would say part of the answer would be for transsexual people to distance themselves as far from this ridiculous 'transgender' umbrella as possible. I know 4 transsexual people (3 of whom are post op) and none of them will entertain this 'transgender' nonsense. They do not understand how anyone could claim to be trans without sex dysphoria and think the way these transtrenders of today act is bloody ridiculous. They do not think they have anything at all in common with crossdressers and drag queens, and see no reason why they should be lumped under the umbrella at all. They all use the term transsexual for themselves.

I think once 'transgender' does not actually include transsexual people, the whole thing will fall apart tb h, as when people hear 'trans' they do think of transsexual people...not shouty female penis types. I do feel this is how transactivists have come so far in such a short period of time. By attaching themselves to a group of people who do really require understanding and support.

When people hear of 'opposition to trans rights' they think of opposition to transsexual people having rights. Not opposition to what has essentially became a mens sexual rights movement.

Your average person on the street will say they are all for trans rights, then will be absolutely gobsmacked when they find out that 'trans' these days does NOT just mean transsexual people. Tell them about the ridiculous transactivists notions of 'female penises' and the very real concept of the cotton ceiling and such, and their jaws hit the floor.

I don't really see an easy way out here. I think that we had the balance about right, GRC process for transsexual people, honour system for female areas...seemed to have the tightrope walk around about balanced. Do you agree? I genuinely see no reason at all to change anything, there does not need to be laws to say that any male person is perfectly welcome in any female area, a GRC does not need to be given out like sweets, there should obviously be some element of medicalization involved...and proof that the person has sex dysphoria in the first place. To remove this is just opening it all up to a world of abuse, and is actually making the GRC a bit of a joke, IMO anyway.

Your posts in this thread and posts on DS seem to say to me that you are very much against self-ID and that you agree that the GRC process seems to have it about right at the moment mind. I may have picked up on your opinion wrong though.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 13:07

She questioned the word parasite because she didn't have the context.

I didn't question the use of the word parasite, at all.

Some things don't need context, when Katie Hopkins called fleeing refugees 'cockroaches' I didn't need to read the whole article to know that she was dehumanising people.

I'm fine with people having different views on trans rights, I'm fine with people having different views on immigration but she you start using words like 'parasite' and 'cockroach' I think you've stepped out of normal discourse and into dehumanising people.

RatRolyPoly · 16/03/2018 13:08

She questioned the word parasite because she didn't have the context

I'm not sure that's why she questioned it... I for one had read the thread about the context and still found it questionable.

Most mumsnetters, not just the feminists, are gender critical to some degree or another.

Well yes, gender critical in the context of gender stereotypes, not in the context of transgenderism I shouldn't think. Assuming that the estimations of tens of thousands of registered users are correct, you'd expect more than 5000 signatures on the previously mentioned petition so far wouldn't you, if indeed the majority were definitely gender critical in the transgenderism sense. Although of course they might be, we don't know.

But yes, most people I would say agree that rigid gender stereotypes are an unhelpful thing in this day and age.

Jaycee I'm inclined to agree with you that there are two "camps" so to speak. I am also still pondering what the bloody hell can be done, but a few posters on here have thought the idea of a "provisional" GRC sounds promising.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/03/2018 13:09

Hence why many who are opposed to all this struggle. Because they ask transsexuals to define why they have a female gender identity and what exactly is this and we cannot answer any more than they do because to us that is not what is going on.

I do think its very unfortunate that this has became so polarized. I think many of the women currently pushing back against this nonsense would have been (and likely still are) entirely sympathetic to actual transsexual people and their struggles. The issue is, it is not feminists who brought this fight to the table, it is not feminists with unreasonable demands. But it is framed that way.

Even using the crowdfunder about allwomen shortlists as an example here. The women donating to that are written off as transphobes. Despite the actual wording saying that the fight is against 'self-identifying' women, and NOT those with a GRC.

I do think many posters are pretty blunt and sharp in their posts. But this is a result of years and years of goading by transactivists and such.

I still think that most women who are opposed to self-ID would support someone such as yourself. they just are not willing to hand over womens rights, and even the word woman, to a bunch of men. Just..language HAS to be a bit polarized, else its a give an inch, take a mile type thing. Like, say you support transsexual women using female areas (my personal opinion) and it turns into 'well not all transsexual people can have the operations for various reasons' 'so if you support any transsexual person who doesn't have the operations then you must accept any other intact male' and so on. Its exhausting.

Stillscreaming · 16/03/2018 13:17

When people hear of 'opposition to trans rights' they think of opposition to transsexual people having rights. Not opposition to what has essentially became a mens sexual rights movement.

Here's the thing, Jaycee is a transsexual woman, if no one is questioning her right to be a transsexual woman and is accepting of the idea that a transsexual should be treated with dignity and respect, why is she being called 'he' and 'a man' when she talks about being sexually assaulted in the feminist board.

What is no one on the feminist board saying 'stop, that isn't want I've signed up for, I just don't want a men's sexual rights law'?

If the rights of transsexuals and the old gender recognition law, with all of the safeguards and gate keeping it puts in place, aren't something you have a problem with, why aren't you keeping to the spirit of those laws?

Datun · 16/03/2018 13:22

Stillscreaming

Have you read the thread about Mermaids and what was actually said by Posie Parker, and why?

The head of Mermaids took her 12 or 14 year-old son to America for cross sex hormones and to Thailand for genital surgery for his 16th birthday. (They have since raised the age to 18).

Neither of these things are allowed in this country, at that age. They are a blatant flouting of all the gender clinics' guidelines.

If you watch her TEDTalk, she talks about being worried at his choice of toys so she took him to the doctor.

She says her husband threw away all his toys, because they were wrong.

One of their representatives called homosexuality deviant. (Video now deleted).

They have an affirmation approach, rather than wait and watch approach. Again, flouting guidelines.

She is now in charge of a charity that informs the police, the NSPCC, schools, universities, companies, and lately care homes for children.

The literature, again flouts guidelines by using manipulated suicide statistics as leverage. ( The slides show it was from a cohort of 2000, and it was from a cohort of 27).

Samaritan guidelines are not to talk about suicide, as it has a self-perpetuating effect.

Literature is heavily biased, and favours one protected characteristic over others.

All of this is in the public domain.

She objected to Posie Parker calling genital surgery castration, because she said it reminded her of sex offenders.

And was upset that Parker has called the genital castration of minors, abusive.

She doesn't consider social contagion as a thing. Although I'm not sure how that squares with 10 girls at once coming out in Saint Pauls girls school in London.

Posie Parker is being used as a test case, I believe.

At which point, this will be debated openly.

And again, I can't help letting you know that this is all documented on the feminist boards.

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