Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

Italian, yes India Willoughby got no good press out of transgender people. I was on the Big Brother forum on Digital Spy throughout and was not at all impressed as you will see if you check it out. This was pretty much the view of most trans women I saw commenting.

Socialisation is obviously a factor because those who transition late in life, as seems common, have not just had up to 50 years of hormones shaping them, but also likely have worked up the ladder at work using the advantage of not having to care about looking after a family and the increased social and financial mobility their freedom brings. Plus they often have had years as a husband and father.

So I don't imagine it is a surprise that they have all these characteristics more often than you would expect. I cannot fathom out what it took for them to live that far any kind of normal life if they were anywhere near as trans as I was from childhood. I could quitter literally never have been able to do all that.

Not just because it is very selfish and dragging that family into your mess, which I find hard to justify, but I can only imagine that they were more shallow in their focus and could put it off for decades. As I know I never could have.

I often hear them say - well when you were trans in the 50s and 60s you just didn't transition. It wasn't done so we did what was necessary and just got on with life. And often played dress up on the gay scene or at home in secret when their wives were not looking.

Well, okay, I think, then if you could do that I wonder how trans you are, because I never considered cross dressing after early childhood a little because it was pretence and I was not looking for pretence. I just wanted real life and was prepared to push for that.

And, as my story shows, it was possible to transition then. I am nowhere near the only one.

So I have a unique way to look at these late transitioners and ask - how and why did you wait that long and get by on pretending and deceiving others near to you. And what has that done to you as a person living like that?

Italian on the question of whether it bothers you if some see you as still a man. Not to the point that I would cry or scream or call them names, no. I guess it hurts a little. Would be fibbing not to say that. But I understand the realities and how and why some cannot.

My own brother, my only immediate family left, and who has known I was trans since we were both at primary school in the 50s is flat out opposed to me having an amended birth certificate. He says what you are at birth is fixed. Has bot stopped me loving him and being grateful for his kinship all these years or him standing by me when necessary as he has.

So it is not about that. I guess there is an element of uniting the two halves of yourself into one whole and the physical is part of that - but only a part. And in the end you reach an accommodation that is comfortable.

You also make decisions not just for yourself but with others in mind. So if some magic treatment came along that meant I could transition 100% and it was dangerous and short lived I would react depending on circumstance. If I was young and it meant a chance to be a mother that would sway everything as giving that up was the hardest part of transitioning. In those days there was no way of saving specimens to allow you to parent a child post transition so it was in effect voluntarily sterilisation when just out of school.

But you have to weigh up the effects on family too. Had that magic pill come along in my 50s when I was a full time carer to my after her massive stroke then I would have undoubtedly put that responsibility first as she had nowhere else to turn.

Like I say you reach an accommodation with yourself and live with what you have. But you have to reach that point where you have established some kind of balance between your body and mind and are more one person than two.

What others think matters of course. It would be silly not to say so. But you gain understanding as you go not to expect the world to change with you overnight. And not take everything to heart.

Urgh, I hate these threads. Genuinely. Partly because of the discourse and partly because they make me examine my own prejudices.

I read the governments GRC proposals. To be honest, there really isn’t nearly the excuse for the hate mongering that’s going on.

The thing is, as a 50 year old lesbian steeped in radical feminist theory, having grown up surrounded by activists, my instinct is to be a radfem and exclusionary. That is what my heart and my politics tell me.

But then I have to also look at the whole situation. And realise that while I have my own prejudices, I also have my own principles. And to paraphrase a film quote, they really only mean something when they’re uncomfortable and inconvenient.

You see, the transwomen and man that have spoke in this thread have done so bravely and eloquently. And those who experienced parental abuse could no more have had the ‘trans’ battered out of them than I could have had the gay beaten out of me.

I know some amazing transwomen and men who are just going about their business quietly, in hope that not one person clocks them. And I am completely for their equality and for easing their path through life.

Equally, I think Lily Madigan is a complete arsehole and some of the transmen I know have developed the worst traits of entitled men. And the people I put in that grouping, the ones that want to trample all over my voice, really fuck me off. There are also transpeople who I don’t think are authentic. But who am I to say whether they are or not based on my judgement or my prejudices?

But this isn’t an situation where we can support rights for those who are asking quietly, we have to support them for all. And that stings sometimes. And then I try and remember that as a butch lesbian I am turfed out of women’s toilets all the bloody time and I know how it’s feels to be othered.

When there’s someone calling for terfs to be killed or someone else telling me that I don’t understand womanhood I try and remember the brave and quiet women and men I know who dread their check ups, dread someone finding out and dread the fact that the more vocal and offensive activists are shining a spotlight on something that, for them, is intensely personal and private.

So yeah, I am going to take my prejudices and park them. Because they’re wrong. And because this whole debate has echoes of the shit I went through when I grew up. It’s black and white. It’s either right or it’s wrong.

Transwomen are women. And fucking hell, I choke on those words sometimes I promise you. I just have to read Twitter and see the bile and entitlement from people like Lily Madigan. But my friend Sue is a woman. And I want her to have a good life, an easy life and to be happy. And I know I am saying that about her because she passes my internal tests for who is a woman. But she is a woman. There is nothing else she could possibly be.

But my internal tests are irrelevant. This isn’t up to me. This simply comes down to what is right. Equality isn’t a gift for me to bestow on someone else if they ask nicely or if I deem them deserving. Equality isn’t something that people should have to prove they are worthy of.

Equality is something that should be offered because it’s the right thing to do.

Thanks for your patience on continuing to answer, Jaycee. I can appreciate that the runaway changes to the body at puberty must feel appalling.

As far as I’m aware, though it’s horrific that any child should ever kill themselves because they are trans, it’s not showing up as a major risk factor in statistics. Maybe because only those at the extreme end of dysphoria would be driven to it? Again, I think we come back to needing some real gatekeeping to judge who will be less harmed by puberty blockers - which sound appalling - than by going through natural puberty.

I’m not counting ‘suicidal thoughts’ there as that is so hard to quantify, but actual deaths.

I think it is time men woke up to the full male spectrum of what is "normal". Gay men were not wanted in communal showers etc back in the 70s, there was a lot of suspicion and were deemed to be "effeminate". Times moved on, we educated a generation of men to understand it wasn't effeminate it was a man finding another man sexually attractive etc.

We now have men scared and deciding that because some men wish to live and appear and act as women they must have transformed into a women by dint of hormones and surgery.

Women and transexuals of both sexes have always got along - it's the men that have been scared and not offered acceptance as part of the normal male spectrum.

Now these men wish to be supportive - it is with a direction board saying"run along to the women's area" we don't want to accept your version of being a man anywhere near me.

I find it hard to speak for trans men, of course. Because many on here seem to have met more than I have.

Physical transition without seeing what is underneath is so speedy and quite marked they blend in easily and the few I have encountered have never struck me as anything other than men. And I probably have met others I never recognised.

I would have thought that their early post transition experience is more positive than many trans women who likely have to wear wigs to hide male pattern baldness if older and/or struggle with things like the voice.

Testosterone deepens the voice and so that is rarely an issue for trans men whereas oestrogen does not raise the pitch and some trans women go to the extent of rather risky vocal chord surgery to alter this and early days might lose confidence because of it.

So passing has more importance to trans women because of the less easy route to do that in those early days and weeks where all will be hyper sensitive to how they are perceived.

Plus the numbers have been much smaller up until very recently so there are not the examples out there to the extent with trans women.

Though that is changing so this is an area we are bound to hear more about.

I do not expect men to find it as difficult to accept trans men amongst them as it might be for women - though most are I should stress in my experience. I have had remarkably little abuse and none since the real early days when my lack of being a cross dresser to gain experience probably was a factor.

The reasons I don't think men will have problems accepting trans men is that they are likely to see it as evidence of superiority - as in - see, even women know we are better and want to be one of us now. It will probably appeal to their ego. They will not perceive trans men as a threat either and likely imagine (though I have no idea if this would be true or not) that they will be superior to an ex-woman and as male upbringing seems to be naturally more competitive this imagined edge over the newcomer is probably a plus.

I don't have much experience of hyper male environments like that. When I started the transition road I worked briefly in one and felt very isolated. Which was why it was briefly! I had applied for a job with the police as a secretary but was tested for the job of a fingerprint checker as I had shown observational aptitude apparently.

I worked at a police station in Manchester in that age when there were no computers and all was done by hand and eye to pick out the right pattern that matched a crime scene mark.

But the staff was almost entirely male and it was regimented and army like and the bonding was acute and I stood out being in early stages of transition and it was excruciating. The work was very interesting but it was like being a prisoner of war.

When they made that TV show Life on Mars, set in a Manchester police station about the same era, it made me cringe because it was so real.

it's the men that have been scared and not offered acceptance as part of the normal male spectrum.

I hope I'm not speaking out of turn when I say... I have never heard a transwoman asking for acceptance as part of the male spectrum. That may be what you want them to want. It may be what it would be convenient for them to want. But I defy you to show me that it is in any way in line with what the trans community actually want.

run along to the women's area" we don't want to accept your version of being a man anywhere near me.

This is all backwards.

@behold, I love a heartfelt and personal post on a complex issue. Thank you.

Oh, did I misunderstand aRespectable's post? I'm not sure, I'll reread. Apologies if I did.

Really great discussion here - @behold i agree very much with a lot of what you’re saying, it’s such a complex issue to unpack - perhaps particularly as a fellow queer woman - which of course is why free discussion without anyone being silenced is so important.
@jaycee, thank you so much for your wise and heartfelt posts and for sharing so much of yourself with us on this thread. It is truly wonderful to see women and trans women coming together to share their lived experiences and find common ground without the rantings of few vocal and aggressive people with an agenda. It gives me great hope for the eventual prevalence of reason and the fostering of a climate of mutual respect and consideration from everyone.

Well said Knit.

Equality isn’t a gift for me to bestow on someone else if they ask nicely or if I deem them deserving. Equality isn’t something that people should have to prove they are worthy of.

That's really beautiful.

As I've said, I'm living in Ireland at the moment. We're currently in the run up to the referendum to try and repeal the 8th amendment, that's the one that give an equal right to life to a pregnant woman and a fetus. The one that killed Salvita, the one that requires women to travel for terminations, if they are lucky enough to be able to afford them.

It feels like the country is full of men, telling women what they should do with their bodies. Of course there are plenty of women telling women what they should do with their bodies but it just sounds louder from men.

'Baby murderer' is the insult of choice. It's so emotive that it doesn't matter that it's not true, that a small collection of cells isn't a baby. It feel particularly nasty come from the mouth of an elderly batchlor, a man who's never had a crisis pregnancy or been close up to a pregnancy at all.

It's not just the lack of empathy, it's bare hatred. These young women need the choice to do something that those men have never had to do and they despise them for it.

Then there is the softer line, the women who are prolife who say 'sure why wouldn't you want to have a baby, babies are lovely'. And they're right, babies are lovely, there is no arguing with that. The fact that you're in no position to raise a baby or can't afford to feed another one is brushed off with the Lord providing.

I all comes down to the same thing, people telling other people what they can do with their bodies, with the absolute conviction that they got God and even science on their side, (the fetus has a heartbeat at 6 weeks so it's a human baby, here, look at a photo of one that's been aborted).

It comes down to the same thing, people who've never been in the position of someone with a crisis pregnancy (or body dismorphia) telling people who have, how they should deal with it, claiming to be protecting the 'vulnerable'.

Facts have lost their currency, it's all too emotive for that. It doesn't matter that there's no problem with abortion across the water or that the scare stories haven't come true and more than it matters that the fast track GRC is working fine here. There are 'young sluts' over there having three and four abortions a year/there will be men in dresses dancing around domestic violence shelters. IT COULD HAPPEN!

I know that some of you might thing that a change in the law might have an impact on you but there are those who would control women's bodies because there will be a live human being at the end, if she is forced to continue with a pregnancy she doesn't want. At least the old batchlors are dealing in facts and not potential outcomes.

Everyone needs to a choice over how they live. There might be people who will abuse that choice but that's no excuse for denying everyone the freedom to make their own choices.

Behold huge admiration for that post above. I know hard it must have been.

"I cannot fathom out what it took for them to live that far any kind of normal life if they were anywhere near as trans as I was from childhood. I could quitter literally never have been able to do all that."

Because they are not like you. The trans umbrella is so wide now that pretty much anyone can be under ut, IMHO.

You know I wish in a way I could quantify how I feel about these trans issues. Because I do have trans women friends who I do see as women. So it is not that I cannot see a trans woman as a woman. But rather I cannot see all trans women as women.

@Beholdtheflorist I love what you said.

But in really equality for women is not being forced to share intimate spaces with natal men.

So if you want to give the right to be close to women to all males in 'intimate places', and call it equality, just bear in mind it is not necessarily equality for natal women.

And it is not you who has to decide who is a woman or not; there is a process for discerning that. And if there is no need to 'discern', if any man can be a woman, then why do we have single-sex spaces at all?

I think it’s fantastic there’s been such collaborative discussion in this thread.

I support LGBT rights.

However, I will not refer to myself as a CIS woman. I am not other, I was born a woman and thats important to me. You can call yourself woman if you want, but don’t redefine me in a bid to define yourself.

@Jayceedove you've stuck with us, that is so great.

However, I will not refer to myself as a CIS woman. I am not other, I was born a woman and thats important to me. You can call yourself woman if you want, but don’t redefine me in a bid to define yourself.

Cis is a qualifier. No more redefines people than anyother method of discerning a subset does. Gay men, white women, etc.

For as long as there are trans people, non gender binary people, gender fluid people, and whatever other types these are, they will need a way to discern out the men and women who are not in these circumstances.

...then why do we have single-sex spaces at all?

We don't have any single sex spaces that I can think of. I know I've never had any kind of sex test. A birth certificate isn't really used for much. I think that the last time I had to show mine was to get married. You don't need a birth certificate to get into a public loo, changing room, a woman's refuge, the WI, anywhere.

I don't know but I wouldn't imagine that even prisoners show their birth certificates before going to prison.

It mostly works on appearance, doesn't it? Most of the trans women I've met, particularly the ones who transition early, blend in perfectly well. Not impinging on anyone's anything.

My wife, on the other hand, is six foot tall and very butch. She's bemused by the idea that women are too cowered to challenge anyone's right to visit the ladies if they don't fit into a narrow stereotype, she get's untold grief. She's probably quite alarming to see in a loo, she's tall, with men's clothes and a masculine hair cut, she most certainly looks like a man and a big man out of the corner of your eye. I do wonder if anyone would want to exclude her from anything because of her appearance or what reassurances they'd feel they deserved.

JAPAB why don't we just call them women and men?

Then women can use the sex-segregated space for women and men for men. And people with a GRC can use the appropriate toilet for their GRC.

What I find interesting about Stephen's post is the reason that trans men dont get involved - having too many jobs to do at home, concern for their children and not wanting them to be exposed to any unpleasantness from the publicity, fear of being beaten up and not being very good at being vocal as they are socialised as women, which I would say feed into all those other reasons too.

These concerns dont seem to affect trans women much who show male socialisation - in that none have been reported to have suddenly developed an interest in doing more housework or free caring, they seem happy to leave their kids to follow their dreams and dont care a job how exposed their kids may feel by publicity, feel incredibly entitled to take over all of womens spaces and are aggressive and threatening to women who oppose them.

Its almost like identity is completely irrelevant to a persons behaviour. In which case why on earth should identity override reality. Sure Im fine with anyone modifying their body and calling themselves what they wish, but to insist we all beleive some kind of transubstantiation has taken place is a bit much.

Trans men its true do generally pass much better as a beard is read as male and to be honest they pose no threat to anyone. If a male clocks them in a male space it is they not the male who is at risk. And a woman self identifying as a man is very much more vulnerable as she will still be read as female. With the trans women the exact opposite is the case - it is women who are put at risk from a male self identifying as female.

I can feel the inevitable comment of NATWALT (NotAllTransWomenAreLIkeThat) and yeah of course not but there does seem to be a tendency in that direction far more than from trans men. I havent had any death threats form trans men for mentioning they were female.

Im sure there are people who have always genuinely felt that they should have been the opposite sex. However theres not test for that condition so what we have now seems to include a fair wedge of cross dressing men, confused gay children, gender non conforming people and attention seeking teenagers desperate for some oppression points all claiming trans status. Its no wonder people are dubious.

The Lily Madigans of this world do not do trans people any favours. And unlike the poster above whilst I might give some trans women honoury woman status there is no way Im doing that for others, Madigan who appears to be trolling half the time, is one of them.

I feel it would really be better if people accpeted that they can not change sex only modify their bodies to better resemble the opposite sex and that new categories are made either seperately or within their births sex. Trans woman are not woman and thats OK. Accepting people for who they actually are should be the goal rather than trying to force others to perceive you in a way they often never will.

I think the problem is that while of course it shouldn’t matter what sex you are, sadly in the world today it does matter.

Desiderio I think your observations are flimsy I'm afraid. Jaycee listed almost all of the same reasons as Stephen for keeping a low profile. She has mentioned domestic responsibilities, caring for a parent, concern for a partner and not wanting to expose loved ones to any public backlash.

I think you've tried to knit a point out of so little wool there's next to nothing there!

It wouldn't be "NATWALT" to ask you where your evidence is for colouring the majority of transwomen this way is. I suspect it's a handful of loudmouths on Twitter and the odd high-profile transwoman (see footnote).

That being the case, I put it to you that transwomen seem to have a tendency to be kind, understanding, empathetic and concerned, and pose no threat at all to women. And you can tell me "NATWALT".

Footnote: it's highly likely in fact that the fact there are high profile transwomen and far fewer transmen is society's own increased scrutiny of women and fetishizing of the female aesthetic, combined with a preference for hearing a male-socialised viewpoint.

@Desiderio very good points.

"What I find interesting about Stephen's post is the reason that trans men dont get involved - having too many jobs to do at home, concern for their children and not wanting them to be exposed to any unpleasantness from the publicity, fear of being beaten up and not being very good at being vocal as they are socialised as women, which I would say feed into all those other reasons too."

So if this is sometimes true, and as pointed out as well the converse is sometimes true then we read behaviour as well as appearance, plus voice etc.

If we did not then you'd never be able to guess on the phone if you were speaking to a make or female, and blind people would not know who they were talking to.

But also, 'gender identity' is therefore not just about how people see themselves but how others see them. I think that is Mich more the older meaning of it. And a transsexual woman I know very much felt grnder was how others read her.

"If a male clocks them in a male space it is they not the male who is at risk. And a woman self identifying as a man is very much more vulnerable as she will still be read as female."

So 'old school' transsexual women wanted to fit it and not stand out. The current trend of trans identifying people do not necessarily want to fit in. Also by appearing on media and identifying as trans, and being famous for it, they can't really 'pass' because we know their full story. In one sense I think it is good they are proud I'd their story. I'm another sense they are creating an identity for themselves so we are expected to accept them as trans but also exactly the same as natal women. This for me is where the gaslighting comes in. If I don't know and don't find out (and the trans person passes) I am not expected to compromise what I know of the world and would just accept them as another male or female (as the person presents). However, if I know they are trans and it is really obvious before I get to know them than how can I be expected up think that they are exactly the same as as a natal woman or man?

If we are exactly the same, am I therefore trans as well? Can I speak with authority on being trans and represent trans women as Lily is meant to represent me?