Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

999 replies

loveyouradvice · 08/03/2018 08:33

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

  • one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
  • the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
aRespectableBureaudeChange · 14/03/2018 09:36

People saying it isn't black and white on issue of sex - it is.

We aren't born as an empty shell with a few removable bits we can swap and become male or female. This is why we should not accept men taking part in women's sport.

Every cell tells the fact of whether we are male or female; biologically, men have different bone density etc it is in their DNA.

If we alter outward appearance we haven't changed our DNA. A few facts below from SexMatters sheet - not "feelings".

• Being biologically male or female is determined by our sex chromosomes in our DNA within every cell of our body, shaping not just the reproductive system we are born with, but our bone structure, cardiovascular system and other biological factors, such as the risk of specific health problems.

• Because the ‘blueprint’ of our sex chromosomes is in our DNA, our sex can be known through examining any of our cells, our blood, saliva, even our bones long after our death.

• Our sex and reproductive organs are sexed. Female sex organs are the ovaries, uterus, vagina and vulva and the male sex organs are the testes, prostate, scrotum and penis, by definition, so there can be no such thing as a ‘female penis’ or a ‘male vagina’.

Adding breast implants, creating a willy etc fall very short of sex organs above - which in fact are there by dint of the fact that every single cell in our body is saying we are one sex of the other.

Rare chromosomal and gestational anomalies can cause some people to be born with ‘intersex’ conditions where the sex organs are ambiguous or not fully formed, which can compromise their reproductive capability.

Intersex is not boys/girls saying I "feel" I am in the wrong body, they have been born with an anomaly which affects their sexual/reproductive function.

Stillscreaming · 14/03/2018 09:44

I think there is a very wide spectrum of views, on what is very broad topic. However, one of the unifying features is the agreement that Lily, represents no one but Lily and does that badly.

A quick look at this mornings DM (I know) tells me that there were some women 'brawling' after seeing a male stripper and Sarah Vine thinks that if women's equality comes at the cost of male depression, it's not worth it. Those actions and views don't represent me either but that's alright, not everything has to.

aRespectableBureaudeChange · 14/03/2018 09:51

Everyone (I know of, anyway) is very happy for people to identify with either gender if that makes them feel fulfilled. To marry a person of the opposite or same sex.

To appear as female/male and have operations take hormones to achieve their desired presentation to the world.

To change their name, request people use the opposite pronoun (should not be a legal requirement) should be part of a warm, respectful relationship.

All these things are now reality - except we are now finding ourselves on a journey to potentially anyone legally defining as male/female because they "feel" it.

My daughter has expressed her concerns (like lots of other children currently) that she is in wrong body - she also is 100% behind the idea that she is female and that won't change even if she has an operation.

She could ask to be called a "he" etc when the time comes, but she understands the science and is comfortable with the idea that she hasn't changed her DNA by removing/adding body bits and will fundamentally still be female - but lives as a man. She also knows her family would be happy and accept whatever makes her happy.

Should be good news, except we've got violent activists who wish to change laws and make natural born women share all platforms with men presenting as women.

RatRolyPoly · 14/03/2018 09:52

We aren't born as an empty shell with a few removable bits we can swap and become male or female. This is why we should not accept men taking part in women's sport.

I say this with the greatest respect aRespectable, and I say it as a sportswoman competing in formal leagues for twenty years now, but this is not why we have women's sport.

We have women's sport for the same reason we have leagues, age categories, disability categories and sex categories. The primary purpose of all of these things is to ensure as many people as possible are able to participate in that sport in a way which is both safe and competitive for them and the other competitors - i.e. no forgone conclusion.

This is the very ethos of sportsmanship, to be inclusive, safe and competitive. I'm afraid women's sport is primarily to facilitate these things, not the feminist ideal of promoting female-only achievement. I say this as a sportswoman first and foremost, and I know my feelings are shared by at least my own sport's governing body.

Governing bodies have the means within the law to set the criteria they feel are necessary to include transwomen whilst not risking the safety of other competitors or to the detriment of competition. There's an argument that they haven't got the balance quite right, and I'm prepared to concede that in many cases. Plus the question of what to do both at elite level and at school level are complex, and I don't think we currently have the best solution. But overall I think it's fair to say sport welcomes transwomen.

Italiangreyhound · 14/03/2018 09:52

@aRespectableBureaudeChange Great post.

No one thinks women are innocent of all crimes. Women brawling etc is just some people being badly behaved, which is utterly wrong of course.

The idea that the recognition of the fundamental equality of half the world's population could or should be held hostage because some members of one sex class being depressed or members of one sex class behaving badly is ridiculous.

Yes, I will agree with you on the one Still, Lily sadly has boxed or been boxed into a corner. There were so many other, better ways Lily could have made a political mark.

Stillscreaming · 14/03/2018 10:04

People saying it isn't black and white on issue of sex - it is.

My mother was convinced that my gayness was just some bizarre plot to drawn attention to myself while pissing her off. I can't tell you how delighted I was at the discovery of the 'gay finger'.

The 'gay finger' transformed our relationship went, my sexuality went from being something that she didn't like and had to take on trust, to something she felt she had real trangiable proof of.

Gay fingers aren't universal, they are a statistically significant indicator but some straight people have them and some gay people don't but that slither of physical proof was enough to open the door to her acceptance, in the way that hours and hours of me telling her, wasn't.

I'd been sexually attracted to women long before that particular discovery but I didn't become 'real' in her eyes, until then.

I do agree that biology is everything and that the essence of ourselves can be found in every cell of of bodies but I just don't believe that we have a full understanding of that biology.

aRespectableBureaudeChange · 14/03/2018 10:15

I'd disagree : sports have bowed to a wave of political correctness and virtue signalling etc.

Women are waking up to the fact they are being bullied by men into accepting that males change DNA/sex and become a woman.

Hence the "guilt trip" men saying women are transphobic, purleeze - it is men that are transphobic and unwelcoming of the full spectrum of men.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118
Anyone reading sign the attached link for women to be consulted on self ID.

By the way, I have the gay finger. I'm born/am female, given birth, married to a man. I do have a lot of male interests and told I have a male brain. We make decisions in our lives, fall in love with people, develop preferences /tastes - doesn't mean my DNA isn't female.

Circular argument does bore me (it is the male brain I have, I'm told) where everyone ends back where they started so I'm off again, leave you to it

RatRolyPoly · 14/03/2018 10:25

Oh, I didn't think we'd covered sports. Not to worry.

Stillscreaming · 14/03/2018 10:31

The sports thing does make me a bit uncomfortable. I don't know anything about sport and I never participated in any and, from the outside, it does look fundamentally unfair but, like a lot of the arguments about trans woman stealing space, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

In the last Summer Olympics, reportedly, two trans individuals took part, one in a woman's category, one in the men's. They were both tested to ensure that they met the IOC's 'normal' hormone level for gender. Neither went home with a medal.

There was no story, there was no erasure, nothing much happened.

One arsehole playing women's basketball in America, is one arsehole too many but that is a problem that should be managed locally.

RatRolyPoly · 14/03/2018 11:03

I'd disagree : sports have bowed to a wave of political correctness and virtue signalling etc.

I should say as well on this point, it may be a comfortable fit for some to believe that, but where's the evidence?

DodoPatrol · 14/03/2018 11:35

I've just googled 'gay finger'. Guess I'm gay then!

Ah. No, I've just googled a bit more and apparently the 'gay finger ratio' is also prevalent in autistic women. That'd be more of a factor here, I think.

Anyone want to find a study now that says 'trans FtM people have relatively longer ring fingers', just to make things complete?

Stillscreaming · 14/03/2018 11:52

I should say as well on this point, it may be a comfortable fit for some to believe that, but where's the evidence?

What I was trying to get across with my Repeal 8th analogy is that once something emotive enough is said, facts don't matter.

Ireland is a very interesting place in that all socially liberation and minority rights have come about in a very short space of time, a single generation has seen legalisation or decriminalisation divorce, contraception, homosexuality, same sex marriage and gender recognition and because of the nature of our constitution, there have been very public discussions.

Social conservatives, in every case have voiced the worst things that could happen, sometimes with no evidence but usually with examples of really extream behaviour. There probably was someone, somewhere, at some time, who had four termination over the course of 12 months, however, that blank statistic, with no explanation, proves nothing but makes a great rallying call.

It was looking at a cartoon from the divorce referendum in 1995, it gave a full rundown of all of the things that divorce could lead to, the breakdown of society, the collapse of the economy, people getting AIDS, the disapproval of God, leading to floods and pestilence. A logical case could be made for all of those eventualities except the God one but none of them happened.

Desiderio · 14/03/2018 12:02

RatRolyPoly

"I'm afraid. Jaycee..... has mentioned domestic responsibilities, caring for a parent, concern for a partner and not wanting to expose loved ones to any public backlash."

This is true - as I said NATWALT just as NAMALT

"where your evidence is for colouring the majority of transwomen this way is. I suspect it's a handful of loudmouths on Twitter and the odd high-profile transwoman (see footnote)."

My evidence comes from having watched documentaries, read articles, interacted with tw on many different internet forums, personal experience in real life and from observing trans women in the media.

And of course there have been trans women I've encountered who have been kind understanding and concerned just as there are many men like this. However over ridingly trans women have appeared to have a preponderance of male socialised traits. This is hardly surprising and Stephen attests to it himself.

I particularly resent the ' trans women are no threat to women claim'. On what basis are trans women no threat to women? Purely because they identify as women? So if I identify as a nice person I can't be a risk to anyone? Since when was self assessment the best way to determine this? What about actual facts showing risk?

It used to be that men who identified as good people were taken on trust. It was thought they were above other men and to accuse them of being a risk was considered an awful and unthinkable thing to do. That carried on for many years until the preists paedophile scandals finally emerged.

It turns out identifying as good or godly has absolutely no effect on a man's risk of being a sexual offender. It remains exactly the same as for other men. Likewise if a man has a penis I suspect it makes not a blind bit of difference whether he identifies as a man or a woman.

I shall raise the commonly responded straw man- so you're saying all tw are sex offenders? No not at all. I'm saying that the have exactly the same rate as men. And we know most men aren't sex offenders in fact it's a minority but a substantial and prolific one.

It is because of this minority of males that we have sex seperated spaces for women to feel more comfortable and safer when vulnerable because of undressing or sleeping etc. It is because we can not tell which men are sexual assaillants and which aren't. Given that being male is by far the biggest risk factor we err on th side of caution. Is that discriminating against all men on the basis of the actions of the minority? Yes it is

I'm sure trans women sans penis do pose less of a sexual threat to women which is how the sex change legislation managed to get through in the first place - because it was assumed people would at least at some point have the op. But when a policy of self ID is proposed it's an entirely different kettle of fish.

I could say so let's look at the stats - what are the sex crime rates for tws compared to men and women? But this does tw no favours at all because it brings into play the second issue with self ID- that any non trans male can simply lie and say he's trans and must be accepted as such.

Even the gender specialists now admit they were naive to think no one would seek to take advantage of the idea. They and the British Psychological Society have warned the government of a huge rising tide of male sex offenders now claiming to be women in prison. They think most of these are false claims.

The number of tws in prison nearly doubled in a year and about half of this total are sex offenders now claiming they are women and demanding access to women's prisons. If you believe they are telling the truth then you must accept that tw pose more of a threat to women then men do in which case why would you allow them but not men into women's prisons?

If you accept that they are probably fake claims then you acknowledge that unscrupulous men are taking advantage of the system. In which case how can you claim that self ID as a system poses no threat to women? When it in fact acts as an invite to the very men that women only spaces are designed to exclude? It's like a giant welcome mat for sex offenders. Why do you think that putting women at risk in this way is Ok? Are you telling me that you think the feelings of 0.6% of males are more important than the safety of females? Because that sounds pretty misogynistic to me.

As for sports - well is a complete fiction trans women have no advantage - in most of the sports they have entered they've done very well. Unlike any trans men. To pretend that reducing one testosterone to 5x the average women's level creates parity is simply fantasy. Again males rights are considered more important. It's little wonder women are peeved when their safety and sports not to mention political places are under threat.

I'm all up for the increased acceptance of trans people by society but this needn't be at the expense of reality, fairness or womens rights. There are other solutions to these issues but so long as the religious dogma of tw are w is promoted it's unlikely they will be sought. Take a look at Thailand where there is social acceptance and yet people do not think tw are the same as w. They have a third gender marker in speech to identify themselves and use men's spaces. The difference there is that men are accepting. That's what we need to work towards. Not bullying women into believing fantasies.

"It highly likely in fact that the fact there are high profile transwomen and far fewer transmen is society's own increased.... fetishizing of the female aesthetic, combined with a preference for hearing a male-socialised viewpoint."

Yes I agree with you on this point.

Stillscreaming · 14/03/2018 13:24

I particularly resent the ' trans women are no threat to women claim'. On what basis are trans women no threat to women? Purely because they identify as women?

I resent that claim too. It frames the argument that, in this case trans women but any minority group, needs to be totally perfect before they can be accepted, which is an unrealistic expectation and one we don't impose on wider society.

We don't do collective punishment or exclusion, we punish individuals for the crimes that they, themselves, have committed.

Of course, I can accept that there might be a fake claim or a deluded claim or a mistaken claim, it would be unraslistic to assume anything else. What I don't accept is that a fake claim makes all other claim invalid.

People abusing all kinds of excellent systems put in place to help minority groups, blue badges, DLA, free prescriptions but we don't throw away those systems because they can be abused, we punish the abusers.

MorganKitten · 14/03/2018 14:06

If you're in London I can tell you were a lot are as I go to an LGBTQ safe space bar

DodoPatrol · 14/03/2018 14:32

'We don't do collective exclusion'

Yes we do, on grounds of sex. Isn't that the whole point?

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 14/03/2018 15:05

hi everyone,
struggling to keep up with this amazing discussion.

Stillscreaming - just absorbing the contents of your last post.

are we saying that it's pernicious to say
"all trans people are a threat"
and it's equally pernicious to say
"no trans person is a threat?"

like they are two sides of the same coin? and this is the wrong way to look at it?

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 14/03/2018 15:08

sorry - not v clear above.

try again.

"no trans person is a threat" and "all trans people are threats". Are those two sides of the same coin? and both almost equally wrong?

Stillscreaming · 14/03/2018 15:17

Yes we do, on grounds of sex. Isn't that the whole point?

No we don't, the UK Gender Recognition Act has been in place since 2005, it allows people to change their gender and equalities legislation has been in place since, 2006 which makes it illegal to discriminate against trans people. Trans women with a GRC are legally female. The only exceptions are about inheriting titles and a right of opt out for CofE clergy, to preform a wedding ceremony.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004

Prisons have their own rules and allocate places on a case by case basis but no woman has a right to a place in a woman's prison. If a prison of either sex (or gender) is violent or disruptive enough, they are moved to the prison that can best manage that behaviour and they are all men's prisons.

DodoPatrol · 14/03/2018 15:27

I know that.

My point was: we routinely, collectively, exclude men from women's areas and vice versa.

Stillscreaming · 14/03/2018 16:12

are we saying that it's pernicious to say
"all trans people are a threat"
and it's equally pernicious to say
"no trans person is a threat?"

Both statements are untrue and I've never heard any individual state either as fact, which, of course doesn't mean that neither have ever been stated as fact, you can find all kinds of nonsense on the Internet but if they have ever been typed out, it would be by someone who was a bit daft or an extremist.

What I'm trying to say is that both are an unreasonable standard to hold anyone to and to frame an argument that implies that trans women have to be perfect while no other group is expected to be is giving them a higher bar to jump over.

I'm not sure how good an example this is but, a few months ago, a gay adoptive father was convicted of murdering his adopted daughter. I don't think there'd be many people who wouldn't be happy to see him rot in jail.

There are some who would use his action as evidence that all gay adopters are bad and gay people, should't be allowed to adopt.

However, most would recognise that his crimes are his own and the fact he's a child murdered shouldn't impact on other gay adopters.

So, if a trans woman commits a crime, she needs to be punished for it but we can't punish all transwomen for her crime and we can't withhold anything from anyone on the off chance that they might commit a crime, unless we withhold it from everyone.

Desiderio · 14/03/2018 16:13

Stillscreaming
"I resent that claim too. It frames the argument that, in this case trans women but any minority group, needs to be totally perfect before they can be accepted, which is an unrealistic expectation and one we don't impose on wider society."

No I don't think it does. I can accept trans women as trans women regardless of their relative crime rates. But the demand is I let them into women's spaces and accept them as women which is entirely different. For this it would be a fair expectation not that they were perfect but that they had the same rate of being a sexual assailant as women - as in pretty neglible and vastly less than men. But there is no evidence to suggest that trans women with penises have a rate different from men.

"We don't do collective punishment or exclusion, we punish individuals for the crimes that they, themselves, have committed."

As posted out above this is exactly what sex seperation is doing - we are making assumptions about all men in insisting they don't watch us undress. Or rather we are acknowledging that their chance of being a danger to women is relatively very high compared to that posed by women. And that we have no way of knowing by sight if they are one of the dangerous ones.

The GRC does allow people to change legal sex. It was brought in originally because it was deemed unfair that transexuals who had the full op could not marry someone of the same sex because at the time same sex marriage was illegal. Also because it was seen as unfair that they had to out themselves when applying for jobs etc.

The first reason is no longer relevent and I would argue that the second reason is based on us living in a prejudiced society and the idea that most trans people pass which they don't. It seems to me better to fight for trans people being accepted as trans rather than having to hide it. The ECHR ruling stated that it was unlikely anyone would seek to change sex unless they were genuine because who would go through a painful surgery to take advantage of a system which was a fair point.

Then when they made the law in the UK they realised some people would be waiting on the nhs for surgery and that a small proportion of people would be unable to have access to surgery because of health issues. So it was allowed that if someone lived in role for two years and presented convincing evidence to a panel they could change legal sex without surgery. This law was only passed on the proviso that most trans people wanted surgery.

Nonetheless all the current issues were raised at the time but dismissed as it was thought it would be a tiny number of people involved and the no one would seek to transiton on a whim because of the checks and balances.

However there were those at the time who said it was a bad law because it was in reality quite impossible to change sex and that it would create lots of issues. And here we are 14 years later with the proposal of self ID proving them right. Because without those checks and balances and allowing any man to sign a peice of paper and become a woman it completely destroys sex based protections for women. It is a system open to abuse which is why it should be resisted.

In fact I think the whole idea of being able to change legal sex was the wrong way to go about things. If anything they should have created new legal categories or brought in gender expression as a protected characteristic. Because a man should not need to claim womanhood to wear a dress.

The fact that they made exemptions to stop first born women changing sex in order to claim inheritance as lords and barons shows that they did think people might abuse the law. However they didn't seem to consider that sex offending men might well wish to gain easy access to women and girls which was something of an over sight.

They did also include exemptions so that female only spaces could still exist for example in rape crisis counselling or DV hostels or places where women may well be put off from using the service if male bodied people were allowed there.

However in recent years any organisation who invoke these exemptions are likely to be pilloried and harrassed by trans activists. Yet again women are bullied out of their legal rights

Stillscreaming · 14/03/2018 16:27

My point was: we routinely, collectively, exclude men from women's areas and vice versa.

I'm sorry, I really don't know what you're getting at here. Trans women use women's facilities and have been doing so for ages. Facilities aren't segregated by sex, they are segregated by gender.

Stillscreaming · 14/03/2018 16:34

@ Desiderio

Just to be clear here, you're looking to roll back the 2004 Gender Recognition Act?

Italiangreyhound · 14/03/2018 16:35

Still it's so ofd you are using the GRA to argue a case, while also advocating for self id because they are two different things!

"I resent that claim too. It frames the argument that, in this case trans women but any minority group, needs to be totally perfect before they can be accepted, which is an unrealistic expectation and one we don't impose on wider society."

No one has asked trans women to be perfect, that is a massive distortion. We as a society currently require makes who wish to identify as women to go through a process not his full on a form. gnu point does anyone think anyone is perfect!

"We don't do collective punishment" not being able to around women in vulnerable situations might feel like a punishment to you but actually it is not.

"Of course, I can accept that there might be a fake claim or a deluded claim or a mistaken claim, it would be unraslistic to assume anything else." Of course it would be which is why there is a recognised process that does not rely on 'because I say so."

"What I don't accept is that a fake claim makes all other claim invalid." It doesn't. It proves how important it is we have a process. To avoid abuse of the system.

Which I'd exactly why there are processed for help for minority groups, for blue badges holders, DLA, free prescriptions etc!

In your own words "...we don't throw away those systems because they can be abused, we punish the abusers." But that is exactly what Ireland is doing and what you think we should do!

@thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth

It's a straw person argument to say "all trans people are a threat" or to say "no trans person is a threat?"

They are indeed two sides of the same straw coin?

We segregate some areas on grounds of sex. That the whole point.

The UK Gender Recognition Act has been in place since 2004, i believe, and allows people to change gender. But does allow for sex exceptions.

The idea of going to self id is these protections are no longer needed! But #Metoo should 're.ins is we are NOT yet I'm a place to trust natal men without any process.

And YES fortunately "...we routinely, collectively, exclude men from women's areas and vice versa." If we did not I doubt most trans males would bother with all this. Plenty have not bothered to get a GRC.