Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

There is no gender recognition bill in front of parliament in Westminster. However, there is in Scotland.

Have you got a link?

@yesitsadebate the Scottish consultation was terribly worded wasn't it!

That's true about there not being a bill in front of parliament in the UK @jellyfrizz, it's hard to prove a negative but I'll see what I can find...

Well it may not be, but it may be! We may wake up tomorrow and scientists may have discovered the "gender gene".

Even if gender was a biological state, it wouldn't change the fact that the biological issues that affect most females at some point in their lives (periods, pregnancy, being generally smaller and muscularly weaker) are not going to change.

What difference does it make what gender identity someone is? Why would anyone care? Should they be treated differently to someone with the same body but different gender? To me, it's the material differences that matter, and even then shouldn't mean people are treated differently (unless biologically necessary).

That's true about there not being a bill in front of parliament in the UK @jellyfrizz, it's hard to prove a negative but I'll see what I can find...

Sorry, I meant a link to the Scottish Bill referred to. I've searched but can't find anything. I thought the consultation was being used as a basis to help write the Bill.

There is no gender recognition bill in front of parliament in Westminster. However, there is in Scotland.

It was still that said that though

There's an article in The Times but it's behind a paywall. The government tend not to announce that they've kicked something into the long grass. There is also a short thread in the Feminist Chat section.

Sorry, I meant a link to the Scottish Bill referred to.

I misunderstood! I don't know either way about that I'm afraid.

It's a shame so many threads on trans women and only one on trans men. And it is being hijacked by squabbling!

We're not squabbling Italian!

I don't think any transmen want to join in at this point though.

Sorry still

Ive just realised that my earlier post may have sounded snide

I could google it and spend hours deciphering it but your explanation is exactly at my level

Honestly didnt intend it if it does...i thought your explanation was very clear, I understood it completely

We can all respect their choices and call them she as part of a warm relationship, but it should not be a thought crime to think/believe they are still a man.

There are no thought crimes, you can believe what you want, but there has been legal recognition that you can change gender for a long time.

People have been able to apply for gender recognition certificates since 2004 and there was a degree of de facto recognition before that, with things like passports, NHS cards etc.

There is now a select committee report, which has been responded to by the government agreeing that the process to change gender is onerous and should be streamlined. No legislation has been drawn up, nothing concrete has been decided.

The worst that could happen, if the select committee report recommendations pass into law, is that trans people will go from filling in a long form with a doctor's note to filling in a shorter form without a doctor's note.

Ireland has a less onerous process for changing gender. It's had no impact on Irish society, there has been no rush on changing gender, the uptake has been lower than expected. Not a single questionable application has been detected. Sport is still played by those who enjoy that sort of thing.

Jellyfrizz, whilst I appreciate your points about biological fundamentals that define trans women from women and that these are unarguable I wonder if you have considered where a cut off point might ever occur that crosses that divide?

In other words, is this a fundamental men cannot be women because of DNA, chromosomes, periods, pregnancy - and does that perception change if science chips away at these?

What is possible now is much different from what was possible when I transitioned 45 years ago. I volunteered to pioneer on a very small scale a form of FFS (facial feminisation surgery) that today is way more sophisticated after all those years.

Methods of surgery in other areas have improved to the point of creating a clitoris and self lubrication. Some trans women have always lactated and they now have method by which this is enough to allow trans women to breastfeed. Though it needs more testing to assure it is safe to the baby before anyone should go much further.

It is believed by specialists in the area that womb and possibly ovary transplants are on the near horizon for trans women. And that a trans woman may well give birth (by caesarean) before 2030.

Years ago trans men had little physical that could be done other than a mastectomy. Hormone treatment was very effective because testosterone overpowers female biology quickly and permanently. This is why trans men pass so well compared with trans women - especially those who transition late - because the impact of years of testosterone can never be eradicated even if it is reduced to normal female levels with surgery.

One of the reasons blockers are so popular with trans kids as they massively improve the female nature of a trans girl post puberty by stopping testosterone (from their perspective) wreaking havoc on their body. And with trans boys, of course, injecting testosterone has the reverse effect in a similar way.

I agree there are huge questions over when or how this should be done with children and it certainly has to be done with extreme care and certainty of necessity not in any way as an experiment.

But I know that had blockers existed in the 70s then 100% I would have taken them and it would have made a big difference to improving my life. Though I do see the negatives too that in the few cases where this will be the right thing there is a risk of doing it with the many more for whom it would be very much the wrong move.

So there are no easy answers.

Trans men now have also have increasingly sophisticated ways of creating a penis.

So step by step transition is physically moving towards more and more completeness.

When or if it will ever allow for DNA manipulation is another question,.

What I am getting at - though - is the trans women are men because argument based on today's reality? Or in a tomorrow where the degree of transformation moves towards 100% will that alter this perception? Or is there something more fundamental being objected to. Because trans women like me will unquestionably take every medical breakthrough going, however risky, to fulfil our quest for unity. And so at some point in the future this will be a question that you will have to ask yourselves.

I haven't been able to stay caught up with the thread, but this jumped out at me, JayCee:

testosterone overpowers female biology quickly and permanently...... the impact of years of testosterone can never be eradicated

So can it ever be fair for someone who has spent years impacted by testosterone to compete against women in competitive sport?

A recent case showed a trans identifying girl who was taking testosterone, competing and winning against girls. How can it be fair?

Jaycee for me it’s about being able to identify and talk about issues that affect women generally in order to remove disadvantage rather than wanting to be the judge of who can call themselves a woman.

I would like to see women freed from expectations placed on them because of their bodies rather than prevent people who wish to have a woman’s body from being called women. I think I said it earlier but if women were treated equally and their biological needs met then I wouldn’t have any issue at all with people calling themselves women however their body looked.

Jaycee, I can see the cosmetic appeal of having a more feminised face, but surely your puberty was part of what made you an adult, with an adult's mind and an adult's ability to decide what to do with your life and your body, and not just a pretty face.

@jayceedove I think you speak very persuasively about acceptance etc. But to be honest people like you are not the problem (to me) and never have been.

You clearly do not want to challenge accepted understanding about what or who a woman is. You want to join 'us'. You say "What I am getting at - though - is the trans women are men because argument based on today's reality? Or in a tomorrow where the degree of transformation moves towards 100% will that alter this."

How will we ever be 100%, as a person we are still be born who they are and socialised to be who we are, we can fight it and change it but it still impacts.

A lot of trans women (yes I am back to talking trans women, although I'd like to hear your views on trans men) seem to act very like natal men. They had (perhaps 40 or 50 years) of bring socialised as male, it seems very self evident as they shout and argue. That cannot be wiped out by how people look.

I am thinking of India Willoughby on Celebrity Big Brother!

I would also hope that in the future scientific strides were made in understanding dysphoria and helping people deal with it to be happy in their own body rather than taking the risks of experimental surgery to get closer to the ideal of 'woman'.

"Because trans women like me will unquestionably take every medical breakthrough going, however risky, to fulfil our quest for unity. And so at some point in the future this will be a question that you will have to ask yourselves."

It is not a question for us. It is a question for you. What must you do, by your own choice, to be as much of a woman as you wish to be, and why at the end of the day does it matter if some do not see you how you see yourself. Others will see you as you see yourself.

I wonder if it bothers trans men if some women or some men continue to see them as female?

Hope Giselle (Hope Disguised) is an amazing trans woman of colour on Facebook. Amazingly fiery. When I hear trans women speak like her in defending natal women, iI do feel a real closeness. It'd not about looks but about attitude.

Although I know looking very feminine is something that also seems to unite some trans women and women.

I remember another India. India Clarke. So very tragic. I think this debate is too polarised. Women do really care about the lives of trans women. This debate pushes is apart. Self Id is very devisive.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/07/07/opinions/sutter-india-clarke-transgender-murder/index.html

pickleme, the rules about T levels and other factors such as muscle mass do need tightening because there are obvious competitive reasons of unfairness. I can see that.

They used to be stricter with regards to allowed levels and more individual judgement to eliminate obvious cases of unfairness.

But they seem to have been liberalised - probably under protest.

It is a tricky area as you do not want to deny competition to some people who would have none if asked to compete with men, whilst it is easy to deny proper competition to women if this goes too far.

I gather there were several trans athletes at the last Olympics and most did not well enough to even be reported.

Creating transgender sports is not going to happen as you could not have trans men and women competing together or you create the same problems. And I doubt there is enough scope for meaningful competition between the numbers of trans athletes as such.

It is not properly controlled today I agree and there needs to be a proper summit assessing all factors and tightening up a range of factors to eliminate any clear unfairness.

Though sport is inherently unfair in terms of the things that create these issues - as in tall, more muscle mass etc conveying advantages regardless of transgender or not.

This is not something I know much about but what I have read suggests that it needs better, stricter limitations than the ones that exist at present as I see the reasons for belief in unfairness here.

dodo, my puberty, like that for most trans people I know, was hell. It was literally like a cancer invading your body and turning you into a monster. If you have doubts over blockers - and I understand why and I agree great care is needed with these - you need to see it from the other side too. A genuine trans kid forced into bodily changes they dread and yet cannot stop can be, and in plenty of cases have been, driven to suicide just to avoid it.

This is a time when the ones with notions about gender confusion will be separated from the few who are truly deeply gender dysphoric. The former will sail through. The latter will need very careful attention.

As for puberty making me who I was as a person, well, yes, to a degree. If in that we all need to go through the bad to appreciate yhe good maybe.

I am not denying childhood. But a trans childhood is not like that of a child of that biological sex because the rebellion inside is there early and you kind of retreat into a shell to escape others trying to mould you in a direction you do not want to go.

I have never aspired to some image of looks and personally was not seeking cosmetic surgery and have never had any. Not even breast enhancement or implants that were offered by the NHS.

But I had been treated well by Charing Cross and they asked if I would help them test bed experimental treatment and it was pretty modest (basically just taking a bone from under the jaw to slightly reshape) - a fraction of what they do now and not something that made a huge physical difference or even really a noticeable one.

I did it not because I wanted it but because I felt I owed the hospital a lot so did not want to let them down when they asked.

It hurt like hell too. Though not as much as GRS!

Some trans women need work to remove an adam's apple. I didn't need that as I did not have one.

But its an individual choice about how much cosmetic work you want and the NHS don't usually fund that, of course, so also costly.

It has never been something I sought and so aside from GRS in 1976 and this facial bone op experiment in 1978 I have had no other 'work' done.

Transitioning involves the body and making it less discomforting but you are always the person you want to be so it can - but in my view should not - take over as the most important part of any transition. Freeing your real self to be yourself is that regardless of looks.

but in my view should not - take over as the most important part of any transition. Freeing your real self to be yourself is that regardless of looks.

I think there's something in that for all of us!