Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

Is 'fucking' a verb or an adjective?

Can be both, depending on context.

e.g. It was fucking awful - adjective.
She was fucking about with my computer and managed to break it - verb.

Consulting a group who've self appointed as the representatives of 'women' is unlikely.

Well no

But i would hope there would be women from a spectrum of ages, races and religions

Ooh thank you re theory of mind

I could google it and spend hours deciphering it but your explanation is exactly at my level

@jellyfizz

People have called prisons and shelters out on this and have been called bigoted and transphobic.

I'm not one for name calling but when people only bring up the safety of prison inmates or the security of domestic violence shelters in relation to trans people, I do question their motives.

I feel the same way when people only mention the sexual exploitation of girls in relation to 'Asian grooming gangs', that their problem is with Asians, not with girls being sexually exploited.

I'm not one for name calling but when people only bring up the safety of prison inmates or the security of domestic violence shelters in relation to trans people, I do question their motives.

The instances I've seen did not mention trans people. They talked about violent men identifying as women to gain access to these places - no trans people involved.

Although who I am to judge the gender identity of anyone - violent or otherwise?

A selection of women's organisations in the UK:

A Woman’s Place UK
Fair Play For Women
The Sex and Gender Ethics Society
#ManFriday
Security Women
Business and Professional Women UK
Prowess
Royal College of Midwives
WISE Campaign
Women’s Engineering Society
Metropolitan Women Police Association
Women in the Fire Service UK
Rights of Women
Women Supporting Women
Asylum Aid
National Alliance of Women’s Organisations
UN Women National Committee UK
UNA Women’s Advisory Council
Sisters of Frida
Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation
Soroptomist International GB & Ireland
Rights of Women
Women’s Resource Centre
Rape Crisis
Women’s Aid
Woman’s Trust
Refuge
Beyond The Streets
Women’s Support Project
Rebuilding Shattered Lives
UK Network of Sex Work Projects
Women in Prison
Women’s Breakout
Women’s Programme (Prison Reform Trust)
Helen Bamber Foundation
Smart Works
Rosa
Wish Women’s Mental Health Charity
Body Gossip
Marie Stopes
La Leche League GB
Association of Breastfeeding Mothers
Maternity Action
Mothers at Home
Women in Sport
This Girl Can (Sport England)
Women’s Institute
Scottish Women’s Convention
Feminist & Women’s Studies Association (UK & Ireland)
The Fawcett Society
Orchid Project
The Judith Trust
Women’s Institute
Vital Voices
Refuge
Union of Catholic Mothers
Relief Society
Women and the Church
Mothers Union
Plan International UK
28 Too Many
Filia
Girls’ School Association
Association of State Girls’ Schools
Girlguiding
Girls’ Brigade England & Wales
Girls’ Brigade Northern Ireland
Girls’ Brigade Scotland
Muslim Women’s Network UK
Muslim Women’s Council
Federation of Muslim Women’s Association UK
Muslim Women’s Sports Foundation
The League of Jewish Women
Association of Jewish Women’s Organisations
Sikh Women’s Alliance
Age UK
Labour Women
Conservative Women’s Organisation
Liberal Democrat Women
Green Party Women
Women’s Equality Party

I'm sure any of them would be happy to send well-informed, articulate representatives to talk to a Select Committee.

@jellyfizz

How would it be different in the UK?

I don't know how it would be different in England and Wales because a consultation document hasn't been published and, frankly, doesn't look like it will be published. People are lining up to object to something that they don't know the content of yet.

It's my opionion that it won't go as far as Ireland because the rest of the world hasn't but, as I don't know what the document is going to suggest, I recognise that to be opionion not fact.

Is the potential for violence and abuse the only issue that might affect women prisoners from being accessible to anyone with a self-id GRC (who isn't identified as dangerous to women by the prison service)?

It's my opionion that it won't go as far as Ireland because the rest of the world hasn't but, as I don't know what the document is going to suggest, I recognise that to be opionion not fact.

OK, so just as valid others' opinions on what may happen.

I'm sure any of them would be happy to send well-informed, articulate representatives to talk to a Select Committee.

I don't doubt that for a second, what I'm questioning is if that any or all of them can represent the view of 'women'.

I'm a woman, you're a woman, we have very different ideas on this subject, who could represent us both?

As an example, if I and a couple of other women who agreed with me, were to be consulted on this, the government could claim to have met the objectives of the petition but your views still wouldn't have been heard. What would be the point in that?

If you're honest in your objectives, you, at least, have cause for complaint if you don't get a say.

(I'd never heard of the Sisters of Frida, their website looks brilliant, thanks for the heads up.)

The government have published recommendations as to how self-ID would work. This is a very strong indication of what would actually happen:

^Recommendation 5
Within the current Parliament, the Government must bring forward proposalsto update the Gender Recognition Act, in line with the principles of gender self-declaration that have been developed in other jurisdictions. In place of the present medicalised, quasi-judicial application process, an administrative process must be developed, centred on the wishes of the individual applicant, rather than on intensive analysis by doctors and lawyers. (Paragraph 45)^

Strongly suggests it is just filling in a form.

I'm really not bothered about what gender identity someone has, (I'm fairly sure mine doesn't align with female and that's ok). It is the conflation with sex that causes issues.

Is the potential for violence and abuse the only issue that might affect women prisoners from being accessible to anyone with a self-id GRC (who isn't identified as dangerous to women by the prison service)?

No, but for what would someone otherwise fraudulently apply for one?

Because that's the issue, isn't it? Seeing as people are already held in the estate of their chosen gender rather than their birth gender (if they don't pose a significant risk)?

I mean surely nothing else would change with self-ID except the idea that predatory males would have an easy way of legitimising their desire to access women; transwomen are already in the female estate and will continue to be, so surely any other issues don't hang on self-ID.

No organisation can possibly speak for the views of every single individual within it. What they can do, however, is present the evidence of how a proposed policy would affect their service and/or members, and whether the impact would be positive or negative. They can present their area of expertise so that policy-makers are able consider angles and nuances they haven’t even realised exist.

@Yesitsadebate

What they can do, however, is present the evidence of how a proposed policy would affect their service and/or members, and whether the impact would be positive or negative. They can present their area of expertise so that policy-makers are able consider angles and nuances they haven’t even realised exist.

That's absolutely true and I totally agree with you but that's not what the petition asks for.

The consultation was pushed into the long grass, but service-providers and organisations are pushing on full steam ahead of the law by introducing self-ID policies that are informed only by TRA organisations who purposely fail to talk about the exemptions allowed by the Equality Act. If there is no public consultation now, any law on self-ID will simply end up reflecting the de facto state of affairs. For an example, have a look at this screenshot from the UK Government Petitions Pffice website. They include ‘gender identity’ as a protected characteristic, even though it’s not.

I believe it does, Still. If women’s organisations are consulted, that is what they can and will do.

Hasn't the government asked women's organisations already? In Scotland for example? I'm sure various groups have made statements, such as women's refuge charities and the Royal College of Midwives etc.?

There was a different consultation in Scotland but the public consultation at least was heavily biased.

@jellyfizz

What you've quoted there, is a committee report, calling on the government to draw up new strategy. As yet, that hasn't been done.

Gender is not a biological state. Male or female is. My 13 year old daughter grasps this fact clearly.

I won't be engaging with the two obvious derailers - however, just to clear up anyone reading the untruths being peddled - people don't change their biological sex by hormones or operations. We can all respect their choices and call them she as part of a warm relationship, but it should not be a thought crime to think/believe they are still a man.

Our children need protecting from this wave of bullies trying to confuse us all and in the process destroying the long held respect and trust between women and men who have fully transitioned in the past and understand boundaries; they also understand issues around biological men taking part in women's sport under the guise of political correctness as ending women's part

@yesitsadebate

For an example, have a look at this screenshot from the UK Government Petitions Pffice website. They include ‘gender identity’ as a protected characteristic, even though it’s not.

No, it doesn't do that, it lists gender identity along with some things that are protected characteristics and some that aren't. Disability is a recognised protected characteristic but 'a medical condition', which is listed, isn't.

What you've quoted there, is a committee report, calling on the government to draw up new strategy. As yet, that hasn't been done.

The government response accepted that part of the proposal.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/535764/Government_Response_to_the_Women_and_Equalities_Committee_Report_on_Transgender_Equality.pdf

It is very easy to find this information rather than just giving an opinion of what the case is.

The government response accepted that part of the proposal.

The government 'response' was that it would draw up proposals for the aspects of committee report that haven't already been addressed, they haven't.

There is no gender recognition bill in front of parliament in Westminster. However, there is in Scotland.

Gender is not a biological state. Male or female is. My 13 year old daughter grasps this fact clearly.

Well it may not be, but it may be! We may wake up tomorrow and scientists may have discovered the "gender gene". Who knows. Neither of us do, that's for sure.

Who are the "derailers"? As far as I can tell the only people on this thread are the ones carrying the discussion; there's no main topic that one or two are trying to pull in another direction that I can see? I doubt you'll correct me though because I think you think I'm a derailer. Not to worry.