Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

You're being ridiculous now. Is that really your objection to a request for a consultation?

Stillscreaming you’re right, of course. Women can’t possibly be expected to organise their silly, fluffy little selves into credible groups actually capable of presenting their views to a Select Committee! The idea is laughable. Get back to the kitchen, women, and let those nice, strong, rational men decide all this complicated stuff for you.

I hope your comment stays online forever and a day to illustrate how patronised, belittled and dismissed women can still be in 2018.

@ YesItsADebate

I think it's patronising to imagine that anyone could set up a group to represent the views of 'women', we're not all toeing a single party line or are you proposing to tell all women what they think?

Jesus wept

You're being ridiculous now. Is that really your objection to a request for a consultation?

A consultation on what? Can you show me what's being proposed?

Stillscreaming: you are hilarious - I guess that's the intention? Theory of mind indeed.

Don't worry your poor "tunnel vision/one track mind" about such things - women are notoriously good at multi tasking and seeing the broader picture (threw the stereotypes back your way, as well wouldn't be a game of tennis back and forth otherwise).

Yawn on. Won't be seeing you (said in "The Prisoner" voice, just for you).

@ LineysOfArabia

If you're having trouble finding it, Greening said last July that the government would consult in the autum. Then the counsultation was delayed until the new year and now it appears to have been kicked into the long grass. She is reported to have got 'cold feet' because of the 'complex' and 'decisive' nature of the debate.

They've just finished the consultation process in Scotland, the fair and open consultation. People got to speak for themselves via a website, they weren't represented collectively as 'women'.

Thank FUCK nobody decided one little rough and tumble loving lass - who eventually served twenty years in the navy , also eventually admitting by to herself she was bisexual - was “a boy” .

Or I’d have been scarred for life and possibly never have had my darling daughter , having been rendered either chemically sterile or mentally revolted at female biology .

Jesus effing Christ l

Don't worry your poor "tunnel vision/one track mind" about such things - women are notoriously good at multi tasking and seeing the broader picture (threw the stereotypes back your way, as well wouldn't be a game of tennis back and forth otherwise).

Is this where you pretend I'm a man because I disagree with you?

Jellyfrizz because it's still implying that women should be redefined as something else to fit in with the wishes of transwomen.. The word 'woman' is sufficient, in line with the dictionary definition. I refuse to be defined as anything else.

Jayceedove - A two tier system much like a provisional and full driving licence.

What is the problem to which this is a solution? Exactly what rights would this give someone that they don't already have under the equality act?

I’m not sure I’d bother engaging with still anymore. She’s made her sustain for the gender critical all too clear. We are hysterical, misinformed racists. And she wonders why people won’t debate her.

Respectful debate is important. Belittling and name calling is what we already have.

Urgh distain not sustain.

However, I do feel that there is a fair bit of misinformation being spread. It starts with dodgy media reports, people get frightened and then it becomes a kind of Chinese Whispers.

This is SO true. Thanks Still the info on Irish system is very interesting. Ironically maybe the more I have read on MN the more ambivalent I’ve become about self ID. Surely prisons/shelters etc will always have safeguarding systems?

The current system does seem completely OTT. Given that its someones life descison that in all likelihood will have very little effect on the wider public. We don’t make people practice for 2 years and submit evidence that they know their own minds and are ready for it for other big life decisions such as becoming a parent. However I’m not sure what sort of solution could keep everyone happy. I do understand people’s worries over self ID, I’m just not sure if I agree there’s much to worry about.

still

Im late to the party not trying to be clever here...at all

I think it's patronising to imagine that anyone could set up a group to represent the views of 'women', we're not all toeing a single party line or are you proposing to tell all women what they think?

Surely that would be the same for the views of 'men' and 'trans'

Whats theory of mind?

@nanny

I pointed out that someone else, who had since apologised, had used a racist word and I told you that comparing the plight of the gender critical with the plight of black people was an inaccurate over reach.

You seen keen to try and avoid the issue here and keep dragging this discussion into the personal, so here's what I think of you (and by you, I mean you, not the gender critical or 'all women'), you've massively over invested in a position you can't justify intellectually and it's frustrating you.

I'm sure you're a delightful person, otherwise.

still I’ve explained, over a very long series of posts, my position. You ignored those posts, not engaging in the least with any of my arguments or point. Preferring to nit pick people, not just me, for slip ups and not really respond to questions. You seem to go strangely silent when offered evidence or dismiss the experiences or feelings of others out of hand.

If you wish to go back and actually respond to any of the points I’ve made, including my reply to your criticism on the use of the n word or the debate on the impact of the use of TERF, or even anything I said originally about the ‘cotton ceiling’ then I be happy to discuss.

But you mostly seem interested in trippping people up and ignoring any points or evidence that don’t suit your narrative.

I’ve reported you to HQ because I don’t feel like you are debating in good faith, which is what everyone else is trying to do.

Surely that would be the same for the views of 'men' and 'trans'

Of course it would, that's why the Scottish government had a consultation that invited comments from everyone and set up a webpage to collect those views. That's a normal consultation process.

Consulting a group who've self appointed as the representatives of 'women' is unlikely. If they'd been honest enough to admit that they were 'women who didn't like this sort of thing', they'd be more likely to get a place at the table. That's a groups that could actually be represented.

Whats theory of mind?

'Theory of mind is the ability to attribute mental states to oneself, and to others, and to understand that others have beliefs, desires, intentions, and perspectives that are different from one's own.'

But you mostly seem interested in trippping people up and ignoring any points or evidence that don’t suit your narrative.

No evidence has been offered. IG shared an article about a person's experience. It's an interesting article but the experience of a single person in America isn't evidence, it's an anecdote.

I’ve reported you to HQ because I don’t feel like you are debating in good faith, which is what everyone else is trying to do.

I'm guessing that you're not going to see how ironic it is to repeatedly accuse me of trying to silence you and then doing that. :-)

I don't understand this argument. Essentially you're saying that women are vulnerable and being abused already so allowing more men access to them is not an issue?

The basis of the argument isn't that women are alreday abused so what's a bit more in the mix Assasinated , not at all. It's that prisons in particular have the power and and a clear duty to protect women prisoners. And that they are failing to do so.

And rather than rallying as feminists and taking that to their door we're essentially letting them off the hook by failing to look at the bigger picture.

It would create a safer and better outcome for women were we to force the prison system to better protect us - from both guards and predatory transwomen, than having them exclude only transwomen, (many of whom would most likely not abuse other prisoners) which wouldn't protect us from the guards!

YesItsA and aRespectable honestly no one at all is patronising women here; I for one think very highly of my sex, but I appreciate we're not a hive mind! I hadn't considered what stillScreaming is saying about who does the petition suggest we consult, but I'm interested; are there specific women's groups suggested, do you know? I wonder if any of them will be representative of my perspective just musing.

Ironically maybe the more I have read on MN the more ambivalent I’ve become about self ID. Surely prisons/shelters etc will always have safeguarding systems?

Rumpled that's basically what happened to me. I thought it was an obvious no-go but now I flip flop. Prisons and shelters do have safeguards. The fact they don't necessarily use them to best effect is something that they should be held to account on! ...but then we have to be realistic about how far we expect them to go in the name of protecting women. History would tell us, not far enough.

Nanny come oooooon, after all this time I think it's fair to say we're all debating in good faith. I do understand your frustrations though, but let me put it like this:

It would be unrealistic to think that in a debate where opinions are passionately held that we wouldn't be able to sense even the slightest contempt from each other when expressing those views. It's inevitable, and unavoidable. It's human. But the trick is - in the interests of thrashing it all out - to try to turn a blind eye to anything short of explicit insult.

I do try, but I do sometimes find myself tit-for-tatting. More so before I realised why this was happening and readjusted my expectations. Now I try and see the occasional dig as evidence that someone truly personally believes their position and let it go, if at all I can.

@ Rumpledfaceskin

We don’t make people practice for 2 years and submit evidence that they know their own minds and are ready for it for other big life decisions such as becoming a parent.

Sorry I've just picked up on this and I can see that my post could have been a misleading.

'Self ID' doesn't mean being immediately able to obtain a GRC, it just means that you don't have to supply any medical or third party proof. A trans person will have to be living as the gender they are asking to be reassigned to for two year but this only needs to be evidenced by a deed poll/change of name document.

Despite what some people will try and frighten others into believing, no one is allowed to decide that they are going to be a woman, get their certificate two week later and decide to enter a woman's space. They have to have been living as a woman for, at least, two years.

Ireland has some of the most progressive GRC legislation in the world, to assume that England and Wales will go further, without any proof, is scaremongering.

Prisons and shelters do have safeguards. The fact they don't necessarily use them to best effect is something that they should be held to account on!

People have called prisons and shelters out on this and have been called bigoted and transphobic.

Is 'fucking' a verb or an adjective?

'Self ID' doesn't mean being immediately able to obtain a GRC, it just means that you don't have to supply any medical or third party proof. A trans person will have to be living as the gender they are asking to be reassigned to for two year but this only needs to be evidenced by a deed poll/change of name document.

Errr, yes it does. In Ireland anyway. I can legally become a man by filling in a form and sending off my birth cert, you don't need to change your name or live in any gender roles.

How would it be different in the UK?