Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
  
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

[ShowMeTheElf]

My eldest child.
See also Riley Carter Millington from EastEnders. Otherwise you are looking to the internet, and mostly youtube I think: Just type gender FTM into the search box and up pop dozens of eloquent young people. I don't always agree with what they say but we do have some interesting discussions over the dinner table.
My DC believes that every non-gender conforming person is a trans person in denial to a greater or lesser degree. I do not agree with this.

[StellaWouldYouTakeMeHome]

Sorry to be picky but trans men are not ‘women wanting to trans’ they are men whose internal sense of who they are doesn’t match their physical body. Same applies vice versa.

Not all men or women who feel this way actually go on to do anything about it but that doesn’t make their feelings any less valid.

Men tend to pass easier than women as well so it’s less ‘newsworthy”

[stephen1955]

As someone mentioned my name, I thought I had better say Trans Men do exist. I was coordinator of the UK's FTM Network from 1989 to 2010. The network provided support to female bodied people who were transitioning to male, intending to transition, or just exploring whether that would be the correct thing for them. We had a quarterly newsletter, and had a biennial weekend 'get-together' where we had presentations by doctors, community members, the police etc. and most years we would have a large group go youth hostelling or camping. We even went on a group trip to Bruges.
I still volunteer proving legal advice to the community, its employers, service providers and families.
The network no longer exists as it has been superseded by the Internet, but by 2010 the network had had about 3500 members, most of whom did go on and transition from female to male. I am still in touch with hundreds, maybe more than a thousand of these guys, and those people who are my closest friends were members. And we are the guys who have been living as ourselves for twenty plus years, (40+ in some cases like myself).
We tend to settle down with a partner, go to college or uni, get jobs, and have kids if still young - whether by adoption, donor insemination, or even adopting a partners kids from a former relationship.
Most trans men I know refuse to engage with the 'twitterati' - I do use twitter, but minimally, as I cannot see any point in knocking my head against a brick wall. I gave myself a lot of headaches as a teenager before I eventually got through to a doctor who provided hormone therapy. I then went on knock it repeatedly against some very thick brick walls until I had obtained the surgery I wanted, until we got legal recognition of our preferred gender role, and until we finally got inclusion in the Equality Act 2010.
But I won't do it with those people who think trans people should never have legal recognition - (Yes I know they are referring to trans women, but hey, that's our community and our friends they are talking about . And it is those women who have been the street fighters and martyrs of our community, they are really speaking about). As someone said on here, for us all it takes is a year or two of testosterone, and nobody need ever know, unless of course they are thinking of going to bed with one of us, then IMHO its a good idea to tell them asap.
I am sure for most trans men, the following reasons are why we are not more vocal:
a. we don't have to be activists all the time. We might just like to get on with real life, deal with the kid's, the drain problems, and the mortgage etc. some of the time.
b. Most of us have partners or kids, who though they know all the ins and outs - we ask ourselves, do we really want to place them under the prurient gaze of the world. We know how unpleasant that is, so no - we choose not to, unless they specifically volunteer to enter the fray.
c. Having been socialised as girls, we know we are not very good at getting our voices heard,
d. We don't like getting beaten up.
But you can find out lots about us - there are several excellent autobiographies by trans men; 'Dear Sir or Madam' by Mark Rees for example. A quick google or amazon search will give you a list. And go on You Tube - you'll find me in a few films on there, and a lot of the younger guys have made some excellent films. And if nothing else, on CBeebies, you will find 'I am Leo' at www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04q1295/credits
Most of us just get by having the life we dreamt of when kids. We don't all have to be 'on the telly' to be activists, but I will say this, when trans men are needed to speak, 95% of them will stand up and speak. A long time ago we decided to become men, not mice.
Any further info needed - do ask
all the best
Stephen Whittle
Prof. of Equalities Law at Manchester Metropolitan University

[Ginkypig]

Thankyou for your eloquent post Stephen.

[Clem7]

I know two, I don’t know any trans women.

In a recent thread about how many trans people posters knew it seemed a very even split.

[crunchymint]

Lots of women say they are men. In 2014 the last year for which figures were available last time I looked, 47% of those who applied for a gender recognition certificate were women who said they were men. But surprise surprise, they still behave like women so a tiny minority behave like men who say they are women. Socialisation wins out.

[hooochycoo]

Stephen, thanks for your post, it’s so refreshing to read a quiet but strong voice.

I’m wondering if yiu’d Be so kind as to give us your opinion on the supposed risk to women and girls from the proposed changes to the gender recognition act?
And also would you have a perspective on the question that never gets answered in these threads... what is a women?

[Stillscreaming]

Crunchymint, that's a fantastic contrast to Stephen Whittle's post. It really demonstrates the difference so starkly between those like Stephen and those like you. Wit, warmth, intelligence, logic and humanity against, well nothing really.

[Jayceedove]

Thank you Stephen for speaking up in the way I knew that you would - as you always do.

Not sure why they are expecting a man to know what being a woman really is all about.

But I guess most of us trans women they have asked have not given the right answer yet. Not even sure there IS a right answer.

So perhaps you can try as no doubt the same ones who insist I am still a man will likewise insist that you are still a woman.

On this thread we have all sides covered so between us we might figure out this conundrum. :)

[ALongHardWinter]

Yes this is something that I've wondered about too. It seems to be only men transitioning to women,never the other way round.

[Zintox]

The focus on trans women is how we end up with situations like this which aim to be inclusive but actually exclude the people they intended to be including - it's transMEN who'd be accessing maternity services surely not trans women.

For me it shows clearly why pretending men are women and vice versa causes confusion and services offered to the wrong people.

[Zintox]

Sorry I should be clear this was posted on a site for maternity services. Though I appreciate it's also aimed generally.

[Jayceedove]

Whilst the numbers are more even now than they were it was once true that there were many more trans women than trans men.

But never 100% Trans men, like trans women, have always existed.

And like Stephen says and I have said in some of the other threads on here, those of who transitioned decades ago were not activists pressing our case in public unless - or until - we got exposed by the tabloids as many of us did.

Often in the process hurting friends and family as they were then put in the spotlight unfairly. We had often actually stayed in the shadows and lived our lives quietly to protect loved ones.

So at that point, to prevent others getting caught in the crossfire bodies like Press For Change pushed for regulations over what the media can and cannot do in this regard.

That, of course, had a benefit for many women and their families who were often collateral damage in the past when some paper thought it was a good jape to publish a story revealing the transition of some 'father' into a 'woman'.

One of my friends who transitioned when I did in the 1970s lost access to her kids over exactly this kind of tabloid trash.

Trans men are not really perceived as a threat of any kind to other men. There is no fear of their intrusion into spaces.

Trans women on the other hand are perceived a threat and understandably so to some degree if self identification means more and more retain their genitalia when doing so.

A debate around that is only right and proper as it has the potential to be a problem. Though in reality it likely would not be as scary as it seems.

[wakemeupbefore]

Isn't Jack Monroe one who is transitioning to man?
Men just don't make so much noise about them like women do....

[HeyRoly]

FTM trans people are invisible because they're born female, have been socialised as female, and do not possess the same sense of entitlement to male spaces as MTF people to female spaces.

Also, there's the issue of safety. MTF people in female spaces are not at risk of violence. FTM people in male spaces? Not so much. So there's a reason they aren't campaigning to be let in.

[HeyRoly]

AFAIK Jack Monroe has dropped the trans thing and is happy living and presenting as female.

[NannyOggsKnickers]

It’s interesting to here all these different stories. This is how it should be. There are lunatic fringes out there pushing for all sorts of things.

But it is clear that the current system isn’t working for everyone and the new proposals aren’t well thought through.

I know a FtM trans person. A lesbian then bi then trans and then back to bi. My concerns are about people like her. She’s made herself quite ill taking testosterone and is no closer to finding herself. The whole thing has been miserable for her.

So I am very worried about the affirmation approach.

Trans people need to be safe, free and supported. I’m not sure self id is going to achieve that. What happens to all the support?

[BothersomeCrow]

NannyOgg What support? Like any other mental health issue, there's sod all for years. One reason people want self-identity to be recognised is the incredibly long waiting lists to even start NHS treatment and progress to getting a GRC. Another is that until recently, certain medics refused to acknowledge anyone could be both gay and trans, let alone bisexual and trans, so would refuse to treat someone who didn't confirm that after transition they would be 100% heterosexual.
A couple good friends of mine are in that position and have lived as women for now well over 20 years, complete with the odd bit of being beaten up for looking like a man with makeup/looking gay etc. Which they put up with, but you can I hope see that being told they don't know what being a woman is, while a teenager does, grates.

[DodoPatrol]

Stephen and Jaycee - do you have ANY idea how we square this current conundrum? How do we preserve Girl Guides for female girls, in order that Muslim girls can attend? How do we advise schools with several transgender children so that they can divide male and female bodies into different dorms on school trips, for safety and dignity?

[picklemepopcorn]

Thank you to Jaycee and Steven. We really need people who communicate calmly and clearly to help us understand the implications and find common ground.

There are issues with self ID for everyone.

[Waffles80]

Probably not here since it’s now the epicentre of unmoderated transbigotry.

[FallenforTom]

I'm seeing within MH more FTM then MTF currently. A few expressing wanting to commit sexual violence too

[TrollTheRespawnJeremy]

The difference between MTF and FTM is MTF know how shit it can be to be a woman. They can make excellent men as they treat women properly and with respect.

[NannyOggsKnickers]

Hi Bothersome some good points.

Which teenager are you referring to?

[NannyOggsKnickers]

Also, shouldn’t we all be campaigning to get that support for trans people and people with dysphoria? Rather than just putting over the sticking plaster of self- id.

Look, I see that it is a difficult path. But the current proposals don’t seem to be, from the outside, the best solution for everyone. Because it has to work for everyone.