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AIBU?

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Original poster

Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

999 replies

loveyouradvice · 08/03/2018 08:33

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

  • one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
  • the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Stillscreaming · 08/03/2018 23:36

My dignity would be affected by someone with a penis in a woman only space. Why am I not allowed to be treated with dignity.

No it wouldn't, the integrity of the space might be compromised but your dignity, assuming you're using the word as it is usually used, wouldn't be affronted in the least. A penis doesn't have the power to make you unworthy of honour or respect. They aren't that powerful.

As for discussing the impact of plastic surgery on women, of course it's reasonable to discuss it from a feminist prospective but that doesn't make it okay to be rude or reductive of those who have undergone that kind of surgery.

EverlastingLove · 08/03/2018 23:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

birdsdestiny · 08/03/2018 23:42

If I had to undress in front of a person with a penis I would feel embarassed and uncomfortable. I would feel as though my dignity and privacy had been affected It happened the other day in an open changing room with an older boy who I assume had disabilities. I sucked it up because I am not an arse. It's very interesting that you speak to me about respect when my feelings are given no respect whatsoever.

Stillscreaming · 08/03/2018 23:45

How do we segregate by sex if we don't discuss genitals.

I'm not convinced that we need to. I'm quite happy to undertake any segregation needed by gender because I believe that the human condition is a bit more complex that sex.

birdsdestiny · 08/03/2018 23:47

What is gender?

Stillscreaming · 08/03/2018 23:59

@birdsdestiny

I think that respect is a two way street and that not being respectful is a very bad way to deal with not feeling respected. It's like an escalating arms war. To reduce another person to body parts because you're not feeling respected, doesn't really do much to help your situation, it's like kicking a cat.

I don't think you'd have been an arse to try negotiate a way of not stripping off in front of an older boy. Did you not feel comfortable about asking for alternative arrangements? Why might that have been?

Italiangreyhound · 08/03/2018 23:59

@Jayceedove
"I have no problem with people holding opinions that differ from mine and do not call them bigots. I have been on Woman's Hour - not talking about being trans - and had no issue with Jenni Murray whom I found respectful. So when she got attacked last year I defended her as I think it was an over reaction.

We need to have dialogue not diatribes offered by one to the other."

Excellent post.

Stillscreaming · 09/03/2018 00:04

What is gender?

Is your google broken?

Here you go, I did it for you:

"the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender""

Hygge · 09/03/2018 00:04

Everlasting I'm not sure I understand you about the slanging match. Confused

The OP did indeed post about visibility.

I was replying to someone else who made a comment about regular straight sex offenders. My reply was really about making things even easier for them, because now women are being told not to challenge anybody and not to exclude anybody by talking about their bodies and I think that's wrong.

Jaycee then asked me a question and I answered it.

LinesInTheSand · 09/03/2018 00:04

I want my feelings to matter. Not just other people's.

birdsdestiny · 09/03/2018 00:05

What you mean is shut up women. Your privacy does not matter. Budge up. Go else where. Could you be anymore patronising.

birdsdestiny · 09/03/2018 00:09

No my Google isn't broken. But keep up with that respect you keep talking about. So we will be segregating by clothes will we or makeup or how caring we are. All traditional concepts of gender. It's going to be pretty difficult to implement I would say.

Stillscreaming · 09/03/2018 00:15

What you mean is shut up women. Your privacy does not matter. Budge up. Go else where. Could you be anymore patronising.

No, what I mean is exactly what I said. I don't think that you'd have been an arse not to take your clothes off in an environment you were unhappy in. I honestly don't understand why you didn't make your discomfort know and go elsewhere. I asked why you did that, if there was, perhaps, another aspect of the situation I didn't understand.

birdsdestiny · 09/03/2018 00:22

Go elsewhere. Where would you suggest I go. There was the men's I suppose. I could have got changed in reception but I think it would have caused a stir. I assume i am not allowed to say to people with a penis go elsewhere because that just would not be respectful. But to women that's just fine. The misogyny is breathtaking

LinesInTheSand · 09/03/2018 00:27

I honestly don't understand why you didn't make your discomfort know and go elsewhere

Anyone remotely sympathetic to girls and women would surely know

birdsdestiny · 09/03/2018 00:32

Sometimes I think have I got this wrong. Have I turned into a bigot in my forties without realsing. But every time I have this discussion with someone the misogyny just pours out unchecked. Lines, your feelings do matter. I was getting so cross Grin I didn't immediately respond but I heard what you said.

Stillscreaming · 09/03/2018 00:32

But keep up with that respect you keep talking about. So we will be segregating by clothes will we or makeup or how caring we are. All traditional concepts of gender. It's going to be pretty difficult to implement I would say.

I find it very difficult to believe that gender is a word you're not familiar with. I find it even more difficult to believe that, if my first assumption was wrong you couldn't have looked it up.

I'm even more surprised that you've rejected the, lifted fresh from Google, explanation and reduced gender to clothes or makeup.

However, in terms of respect. I don't feel very respectful towards you. I think that you've reduced other people to body parts, I think you've declared yourself 'not straight' to further your argument and then dropped the subject when questioned further. I believe you've been in an uncomfortable changing room situation and then totally twisted my response to frame yourself as a victim of something. I think you've pretending not to understand a word, just to be argumentative.

I think your stance is disingenuous it its entirety and I don't have much time for that. My experience of MN leads me to believe that your next move will be to accuse me of being a man and I really can't be arsed with that.

birdsdestiny · 09/03/2018 00:34

I can't believe I have been on MN forever and still can't highlight a name properlyBlush

AssassinatedBeauty · 09/03/2018 00:35

How do you segregate services based on traditional concepts of gender?

birdsdestiny · 09/03/2018 00:41

Still haven't explained how we will segregate by gender I see. You don't seem to answer many questions. I am not framing myself as a victim of anything I have clearly stated I felt uncomfortable in a changing room. You told me to go elsewhere I asked where, you did not answer. I have clearly stated I sleep with men and women. I am not sure what other details you require. I think I have answered all your questions. Would you like to answer mine. How will segregating by gender work, and where else should I have gone to change.

Stillscreaming · 09/03/2018 00:41

Anyone remotely sympathetic to girls and women would surely know

No, I honestly don't recognise these girls and women who would quietly strip off in an environment in which they felt uncomfortable. Did my parents neglect some vital bit of socialisation about this? I was taught that this was my own private body and I didn't need to share it with anyone I didn't want to. Have things changed so much?

Are most women really so meek, that if they didn't want to put the mother (?) of a disabled child to the trouble of moving him, they couldn't slip off to the loo to change or wait until he'd gone or ask for an alternative?

S0upertrooper · 09/03/2018 00:42

My first experience of a FTM individual was around 1999, working with a woman who transitioned to a man. On the first day he came into work the office of about 60 stood and clapped, whistled, cheered. We all made a point of addressing him by his new name, and then it was business as usual. I am a member of an open water swimming group, one of our members I believe is FTM. I say I believe because it has never to my knowledge been discussed and I wouldn't ever think it was any of my business.

Many years ago I was in an all women drumming band and we had MTF members. We were a bunch of women who loved the sisterhood and making noise.

LinesInTheSand · 09/03/2018 00:44

Well, there's your true colours, Stillstreaming eh?

multivac · 09/03/2018 00:47

I think that you've reduced other people to body parts

Why is your binary so superior to the binary that others are experiencing?

birdsdestiny · 09/03/2018 00:51

You used ' traditional concepts of gender' in your definition, I have described some traditional concepts of gender, is your definition wrong then. You dont seem very clear on it all.