Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

Thank you.

Thanks Jaycee, I've just used link and signed - I'm very new to this debate (a week) and formulating what I think.

We can all hear it going on around us, but think there's nothing we can do to slow down and get a rethink on it all. But there is and we should all be getting informed.

Thank you Jaycee for link - just signed.

More time for everyone to understand the implications.

I think that’s a very well worded petition - all it’s asking for is open discussion about issues affecting women, and to be honest anyone who doesn’t agree with that clearly has a wider agenda
Regardless of where one stands on this, I believe open and free discussion without intimidation (from any side) is absolutely vital.

Yes knit I thought it was well worded too.

Glad to see you signed jaycee talking to you has been so helpful. It’s good to find out other perspectives. You’ve been really patient with me, so thanks for that.

Thanks, Nanny. I am expecting some flask from fellow trans people tonight who know my views but will consider me a traitor now I suspect.

But I will always do what I feel is right. And this was.

You are not a lone voice. You might find others join you. There have been more and more trans people coming forward to voice their concerns about self-id.

If we get together we can achieve a lot.

A thanks from me too to the various trans members who have helped to articulate the debate more clearly.

I'm pondering sharing this on Facebook but we have rather a lot of friends with apparently sudden-onset trans children who are definitely all for #SelfID #NoDebate.

Kitties: I've posted on exactly that issue a few times, there is a push on kids to decide who they are attracted to and who / what that means they are.

If your friends realise it's not just their kids, it's a juggernaut of pressure for young people at the moment - kids need space and time to live with their decision.

Feel free to search my posts with key word 'autism' and then 'gender identity' - this is all kids seem to be talking about and worrying about. It is people rushing to label and damaging our kids.

Very interesting thread. Great to hear from some experienced trans people. Thanks to the 90% of people who have engaged patiently and in good faith.

@aRespectableBureaudeChange I am glad to hear others recognising how much pressure there is on young people. If it was anything else, future study, future job, where they will live, we would caution to go at slower pace.

I am expecting some flask from fellow trans people tonight who know my views but will consider me a traitor now I suspect.

I wouldn't think of anyone as a traitor for signing it but I do think that many are falling for hype.

I mostly live in Ireland where we've had 'self ID' since 2015. It's not really 'self ID', the GRC application form has been cut from being the same as the British one, (16 pages long, with 24 pages of advisory notes), to two pages, which is a good bit shorter than the British are proposing.

In Ireland, no supporting medical documentation is required for a GRC and it takes about two weeks to be issued. So, you fill in a form, enclose a cheque and get your new birth certificate two weeks later.

So far, 240 Gender Recognition Certificates have been issued under the new rules, a slightly lower uptake than was expected and nothing else has really happened. Life has gone on and no one except those who's lives have been made a bit easier, has noticed.

The prison service is still as bad as it has ever been at running prisons. Public loos are still uninviting enough not to offer anyone any sanctuary. Priests are still the only men in dresses that children need to be warned against.

Two years on, there was a review of the new system and it was found to be so successful, without a single complaint or evidence of any misuse, whatsoever, that the government now considering opening it up to non-binary people.

Of course, we don't have an hysterical right wing press here, whipping up fear and loathing.

Sorry, I made an error above, Gender Recognition Certificates are issued free of charge in Ireland, no cheque needs to be enclosed with the application.

I think the charge is one of the main gripes with the people here who I have asked why they have not registered.

This bemuses me. I cannot even recall how much it cost back in 2004 but it was not much if I could afford it as a full time carer and I know it only took a few weeks and was very straightforward.

Of course, it was easier given that proof was easy having transitioned over 30 years earlier and I had lots of ways of proving permanence and integration.

But regardless of cost and being aware that I likely never would use the GRC (and 14 years on I still never have) and the birth certificate (which I have used a couple of times as proof of age - eg to get a bus pass - as I don't drive and did not then have an up to date passport as I was unable to go anywhere as a carer) were things I was going to have regardless.

Just for my own peace of mind. It was like my college diploma, never used but a symbol of what I was and the outcome of much stress and effort.

Even so the gulf between the numbers who could have a GRC right now and those who do is surprisingly large. Probably about only 10 - 20% of those who could actually have.

It just baffles me that so many would leave themselves potentially vulnerable just in case.

However, removing the charge might increase the uptake - even though the same people unwilling to pay a small sum will likely have happily paid out thousands on, say laser treatment.

@Stillscreaming

"So far, 240 Gender Recognition Certificates have been issued under the new rules, a slightly lower uptake than was expected and nothing else has really happened. Life has gone on and no one except those who's lives have been made a bit easier, has noticed." With respect, how can you possibly know what has happened?

Plus trans women in Ireland are not housed in a female prison. Approximately half of English trans prisoners are in prison for violent or sexual offences. So if we got self id in England what would you suggest happens to those prisoners?

It's not really toilets and showers that are the issue, it's prisons, rape crisis centres, refuges, hostels for vulnerable women etc.

What do you think these people got who are using a 'self id facility' that they wouldn't get from going through a process for Gender Recognition Certificate? Yes cheaper sounds nice, but why shorter? Or easier?

Doesn't this potentially under value those who have been through a process?

The only person I've heard of transing into a man from a woman is chastity Bono. And he seems very genuine and nice and was obviously in a really difficult position being the child of such a famous person and being in the media a lot a while back.

Plus trans women in Ireland are not housed in a female prison. Approximately half of English trans prisoners are in prison for violent or sexual offences. So if we got self id in England what would you suggest happens to those prisoners?

As in the UK, trans prisoners are allocated their prison place on a case by case basis. That's happening now in the UK and the prison authority in the UK is doing a considerably better job of keeping women safe from other prisoners than it's doing of keeping them safe from the unwanted sexual attention of male prison officers.

I didn't mean to focus of the process being free, just to correct an error I'd made. The point I was trying to make is that you fill in a two page form, send it off and receive, what looks like a new birth certificate two weeks later and that there hasn't been a single case of misuse in two years.

It's not really toilets and showers that are the issue, it's prisons, rape crisis centres, refuges, hostels for vulnerable women etc.

Trans women with a GRC are currently using rape crisis centres, refuges and hostels for vunerable women in the UK and they have been for years. The proposed changes won't alter that.

Women's Aid are currently reviewing their policy on self identifying trans women, (those without a GRC) working in their shelters, independently of any proposed changes.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/02/04/womens-refuges-set-to-overturn-ban-on-self-identifying-transgender-staff/

Here's a man who has been imprisoned for sexually abusing inmates, not someone who might potentially abuse female inmates but has actually done so, been charged and convinced.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/824691/Prison-officer-jailed-sexually-assaulting-female-inmates-HMP-Warren-Hill

Here are three more women whose claims of sexual assist by a male prison guard have been collaborated. Again, not potential assaults but ones that have actually taken place:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/21/sexual-abuse-yarls-wood-immigration

The Howard League for Penal Reform published a report in 2014 which stated that sexual abuse by male prison officers took place in women's prisons across the UK.

It's constantly being brought up that trans women might/could/have the potential to harm women in prison, while the men who are actually are raping and sexually abusing women in prison aren't mentioned. No one is calling for the withdrawal of male prison officers or even discussing if it might be a good idea. I wonder why that might be?

I don't understand this argument. Essentially you're saying that women are vulnerable and being abused already so allowing more men access to them is not an issue?

@Stillscreaming Yes, men abuse and rape women. I know they do and it's appalling. So why anyone would suggest that any male who wants to self identify as a woman should be allowed to do so, in law, and work in hostels with vulnerable women at their lowest ebb.

I know trans women are in women's prisons, in very small numbers. Like the male who raped two teenage girls and is now in a women's prison. Like the trans women removed from a female prison (Paris Green). I'm not going to bother putting in the links.

I really hope self Id does not come in, it is a massive exercise in gaslighting but I don't think there is any point in my arguing about this with you anymore. If you say something different maybe I will come back and engage with you!

I am on this thread because I want to talk about trans men not trans women.

Oh AssassinatedBeauty didn't see your reply before I posted!

why would anyone...

No, I'm saying that I find this concern about sexual violence towards female inmates suspiciously selective in its focus.

Just be direct and state that you consider people raising this issue to be transphobic bigots, rather than mess about implying it via lengthy posts about other issues.

I don't think most people are bigots, really. Women, on the whole generally, tend to be good at Theory of Mind and that doesn't sit well with being a bigot. However, I do feel that there is a fair bit of misinformation being spread. It starts with dodgy media reports, people get frightened and then it becomes a kind of Chinese Whispers.

I think that generally, people are a bit fuzzy on what the current legislation does and what the proposed legislation might do and those who would deliberately or mistakenly misinform (perhaps because they're frightened of what they've read) are feeding into that.

For example, the petition asked for women to be consulted, which sounds like a great idea but which women would they like consulted? What group, that could fit into a Select Committy Chamber and could put their views across, in a reasonable amount of time, could represent the views of 'women'?