Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

OP you are not the only one to notice this. Another question, why do we see so many men in the media who want to appear as women with breast implants and hormone treatments but still want to hang on to their dicks?

So many are the Raspberry? So many people in the media with breast implants and confirmed penises? Definitely with penisis? Are you sure you aren't, you know, exaggerating?

@RaspberryCheese, the OP said that she was aware of two transmen. Since then there have been 13 pages of posters saying that they know more. Some even claim that they know loads.

Just as a by-the-by on transsexual hormone treatment. Two kinds of hormones are prescribed, one is an androgen blocker and the other is similar to HRT. The androgen blocker causes erectile disfunction and shrinks the testicles.

@EverlastingLove

Thank you so much for sharing do much of your experiences. Can I ask what you mean about reaching peak trans?

You say 'please believe me nobody walks this road unless they have to" and I believe that you believe it, but I cannot believe the numbers now presenting as trans are all genuine, scientifically it does not make sense to me.

For a long time numbers were small, then we got the internet and Caitlyn Jenner and now.... How can it be a natural phenkmonum?

"i have to admit i get on better with Transmen than transwomen." Can you say why? Or am I just being nosy!

"please beware not all the people claiming to be Trans on here actually are , having spoken to a few via PM their backstory doesn't stand up , ie nobody remembers them at whatever GIC they claim to attended or the meds they claim to have taken weren't prescribed back then"

I used to post on the fertility threads and my th asked if I knew people were genuine! I did usually because the timings and the whole process was similar.

I am very sorry that this has opened up old wounds for you.

@Jayceedove so actually a lot of feminists and women in general are say I h exactly what you and other 'old school' transsexuals are saying. So when people run onto a thread here and accuse people of being transphobic actually they are condeminh the views of trans people too.

I think it is important to sign petitions but I don't think sheer numbers alone can win for common sense. We need people who know their stuff!

Thank you do much for all you have said, I absolutely have no problems with you and people who transitioned on a system. It is self id and the repercussions of it I fear.

Is there a petition to keep GRC unchanged?

In another thread a rather angry poster said something to the effect that they are fed up of reading us posting this and if we are genuine then we should be organising campaigns and protests.

I have not answered in that thread as I think the post was a little too angry for me to give a considered reply. But will answer that point here.

Yeah that was me. I wasn't angry, just frustrated. Here's what I wrote:

I have now lost count of the hours I have spent reading long, rambling posts on here from transwomen who come to tell us all about their painful histories and to point out that they are not in favour of self-ID, that they share our concerns. But also that they personally are not a threat so can we just stop being mean because otherwise they sadly can't support us.

Trans people opposed to self-ID need to be organising for themselves You need to be writing to your MPs and contacting all the other nice trans people who are opposed to self-ID to start campaigns. You need to be starting petitions, writing joint statements, coming up with your own set of reasonable demands etc. etc. You need to be making your own voices heard as trans people, not just as conditional supporters of women's campaigns, because with the best will in the world there will be a whole heap of things we will never agree on.

Yes, it's scary and yes you will get abuse. Tell us about it! I've just been reading reports of yet another woman attacked by a mob for the terrible crime of attending a meeting.

These violent activists are pushing this shit in your names and instead of telling them loud and clear they don't represent you, you're farting about on MN tone-policing women's conversations.
--------

As I said, I was not angry, merely frustrated. I'm pissed off now though. How shitty to not respond on the thread and then go on another thread and talk behind my back like this! How incredibly passive aggressive!

I don't question whether you are genuine at all. I'm just frustrated that trans people are not doing more themselves to organise against this. I know there are not many of you. There are not actually all that many gender critical women either, and until very recently, only a tiny handful of us. The debate has grown a lot over the last year or so, especially on MN because it's one of the very few places that allows this debate to happen. None of us were activists around this until we had to be.

There are not many of you but you potentially have a powerful voice here because for the majority of ordinary people who have not been following this debate much, when they think of trans people they think of people like you, who have fully transitioned and are just leading ordinary lives, who we have been sharing toilets etc. with for years. They are not thinking of the new, aggressive 'penis is female' crowd. The trouble is, if they only hear from that crowd because all the reasonable trans people are keeping their heads down, they won't dare question it. They don't really understand the issues and here are lots of trans people saying 'this is what must happen, #NoDebate, asking questions is transphobic' and no trans people saying 'this is bullshit'.

There are a few brave transwomen who are speaking up, e.g. Debbie Hayton, , Miranda Yardley. I'm not suggesting you start a big campaign all on your own, just maybe make contact and see what you can do if you put your heads together, few though you may be.

You don't need a big campaign behind you to write to your MP either, you write well, just let them know what your concerns are as an ordinary citizen.

So when people run onto a thread here and accuse people of being transphobic actually they are condeminh the views of trans people too.

Having spoken to a good number of "ploppers" by PM Italian they all agree, to a man, that it is not the fundamental argument that people consider transphobic. I haven't spoken to anyone who thinks it is transphobic to oppose self-ID. Just as a side point.

To be honest i dont know any trans people or maybe i do and i just dont know it? My experience is probably limited to the plethora of tv progs which generally show men wanting to become women. A lot of them live with implants and hormones and keep their dick. Maybe at some future point they get it chopped,,who knows.

I do think there are probably more M>F trans than F>M trans,,unless anyone can say different? Are there any stats?

I know two at my job FTM. None in my social or family circle, transitioning either way.

Funny to be suggesting that the small group of transpeople on MN are just 'farting about on MN' when it's what a huge amount of MN anti-trans posters have been doing for the last at least 2 years.

The Spartacus threads were full of people saying they say things on MN they wouldn't say in RL. Shortly after those threads there was a thread with a petition against self ID (which I signed) which was like tumbleweed and when I posted (under a previous name) that hundreds of posters were on the Spartacus threads but ignoring this I was told it was because people didn't want to put their RL name on there and they were scared.

When I asked what we could actually DO in RL and were there groups or meetings I was fobbed off with all these secret squirrel stuff about how it couldn't be spoken about online because of risk of doxxing or threats and I could just be a TRA trying to get information.

It was like Life of Brian when Brian is about to be crucified and Judith is shouting 'but something is actually happening Reg!' and the Peoples front of Judea just want to make points for an agenda for another fucking meeting about it.

And as time went on the actual legitimate concerns got lost in a lot of transphobia that I couldn't allign myself with. I still don't want self ID or people with penises in female prisons or think that a transwomen is a woman, or that they should be a womans officer but I won't call them a man and I won't mock their appearance or constantly talk about their dicks or get myself whipped up into histrionics that 'they' are trying to erase Mothers day and believe that women won't be able to go out in public in a few years if self ID did happen.

Most of the anti-trans posters MN have probably done nothing but moan on MN and get outraged on thread after fucking thread and freely admit they don't do it in RL.

So it's fucking out of order to start on the minute number of trans people posting that they're not doing enough.

italian I think the campaign jaycee is talking about is the sex matters campaign.

I can see how it could come across as anti-GRA. But the whole point it to try to protect the sex based exemptions currently protected by the equalities act. No one is asking for a roll back of trans rights.

Again, this is mostly as a reaction to TRAs and the invasion of women’s sport, institutions and private spaces by those pushing for self id. They seem to be gaining ground pretty quickly

Nanny, I will take a look at A Woman's Place. I have no problem saying would support any campaign such as the one you suggest. Because it is what is right.

Raspberry, I would struggle as much as you to the want big breasts and a penis individual. It comes over as exhibitionist and being able to show off in both genders. Probably soon someone will try for the Guinness Book of Records as possessing the biggest of both at once. It is the kind of thing you see on This Morning all the time and we live in a 'wanna be noticed' age, sadly, where fame and a thousand facebook friends = happiness.

Whilst physical transformation matters to those who are transitioning for life I never noticed it being a dominant factor. Dr John Randall was the psyhiciatrist who was the one that gave a go or no go to surgery at Charing Cross in the 1970s. You can hear but not see him on the first BBC TV documentary on the subject ''A Change of Sex' - dating back to 1979 - viewable on Youtube - giving an insight into his manner - was had a wall of 'success stories'.

You were photographed when you first arrived and a few years later after he signed you off post surgery. He liked to display the progress for new patients to see and was quite insistent on the importance of passing and appearance. I imagine that some patients took his rather traditional male view of women to heart and almost became complicit in a creation mythology.

Being a little unfair to him, I think. But it struck me that way at the time as I was never one to be image based. Back then I was never expecting to be on TV shows and just wanted to get on with being me and this idea of what to aspire to did not really make that much of an impression with me as it maybe did with some. I was offered 'big boobs' after GRS and flattering as it was I had was okay with my natural development and fortunately so was my fiancé. I have never regretted that decision. But it clearly will matter more to some and natural growth post transition is never predictable and often limited.

Stillscreaming - the androgen blocker is temporary for those who have GRS as that surgery removes the source of testosterone from the body down to the same levels as any woman. But if surgery does not happen the blockers will control how much or how little you have afterwards and this is obviously a big factor in muscle development and body mass long term.

As of course is age of transition. Someone like Caitlyn Jenner with 60 years of a male body pumped with T to the point of Olympic winning success will have more of an edge even post transition than a 60 year old trans woman who started hormones soon after puberty. They effect the make up of the body more if that occurs before the late 20s and, of course, decades without any significant T levels effects muscle considerably.

The female hormones are very similar to HRT. I have been on Premarin for 45 years and nobody is supposed to take it that long. It does have side effects (it caused my gallbladder to pack up at 31). They tend not to use it now but it is effective. Indeed a friend of mine who was on the exact same dose for HRT had it stopped and she misses it and I have considered offering some of mine but I have told her to ask her GP first as I don't want to do this unless she tells my friend it is safe.

Trans women have regular checks on blood levels for various features including the T and E balances. Those testing have to be told they are testing a trans woman because it will not be obvious from the readings. And because some levels can come back as akin to those with a pregnant woman you can get told that. When I switched doctors a few years ago they did a test very early and missed by notes on transfer and called me in to ask if there was any chance I was pregnant in my early 60s. I had to ask if she realised I was trans and she looked on screen and went 'Ah!'

I can well see why those concerned about unfairness in sports are posting a lot. They seem to be rather lax on the rules about what is and is not allowed in these areas these days.

because people didn't want to put their RL name on there and they were scared.
With good reason.
When I asked what we could actually DO in RL and were there groups or meetings I was fobbed off with all these secret squirrel stuff about how it couldn't be spoken about online because of risk of doxxing or threats and I could just be a TRA trying to get information.

This is also a very real threat and not really something to be taking the piss out of (sorry if I have read you wrong, but thats how it comes across). Women HAVE been doxxed, have lost their jobs, have been physically attacked, have had the most disgusting threats sent to them..and so on. And it may sound paranoid to be unwilling to give your details to someone who says they are on the same side, but transactivists do do exactly that, pretend to be GC to get lists of names, FB profiles, whatever and then send endless abuse, threats and try to literally ruin a persons life..

I put my real name to the fundraiser, and ended up on a stalking list and had a couple of rape threats sent to me ffs. My husband got a message telling him that I am a transphobe (and he sent a fairly amusing reply back to the cunt) and such.

The tide does seem to be turning recently, but even as little as a month ago I was terrified of TRAs getting my details, so cannot fault others for being the same. Turns out, I was right to be scared of them as they are utter nutjobs without consciences who simply cannot abide people holding different opinions or believing in biology. I knew this already of course, but thought the 'paranoia' about it all may be over-egged. Turns out, its really really not.

The cotton ceiling thing does annoy me. I've replied to this question so many times on MN that I should copy and paste it, so I don't have to type it out again. I've been out since I was 15, in that time I've had countless people state that they had an entitlement to by body, some kind of God give right to have sex with me. In the overwhelming majority, they've been straight men. Next up have been straight women who've felt that I should 'preform' in front of their partners and coming in at the back of the race, have been fellow lesbians.

All of them have been arrogant, entitled wankers, who I've had no problem telling where they could shove their mercy/performance fuck. To a man/woman/dyke they accepted the rejection with very little grace and a lot of name calling.

While I haven't personally experienced it, I'm not surprised that some trans women are getting in on the act but I don't see it as worse than the straight men, the straight women or the lesbians who do.

Why would I be more offended by a trans woman telling me that she has a right to have sex with me than I would by a straight man doing exactly the same thing?

For me the difference is that the (supposedly) LGBT groups and the (supposedly) feminist groups etc are reinforcing that lesbians need to 're-educate' ourselves to like penis and giving out the message that lesbians are privileged oppressors for denying biological males their right to our bodies.

Yes, there were always misogynistic d*ckheads who targeted lesbians, joked that they were also a lesbian 'just trapped in a man's body' and accused you of being a 'manhater' when you wouldn't have sex with them. But I was taught by strong feminist women that I had a right to my own body and my own boundaries - and, although most gay clubs were mixed (so the straight blokes would follow us in) there were also a few women-only support groups and spaces.

Now there are no spaces where women can meet without biological males and this same type of bloke still says that they are a lesbian trapped in the wrong body and that you are a 'hater' if you won't have sex with them - only, now they are taken very seriously and all the supposed 'progressives' are on their side.

Although in theory, this re-definition of sexual orientation as 'gender preference' affects four groups (straight men, straight women, gay men and lesbians), it is absolutely massively disproportionately lesbians who are targeted (by what we would have previously called 'straight men') as needing to accept any sexual partners who are of the "gender" they are attracted to - and LGBT organisations and so-called feminists are backing them up.

Funny to be suggesting that the small group of transpeople on MN are just 'farting about on MN' when it's what a huge amount of MN anti-trans posters have been doing for the last at least 2 years.

However I also agree with this. There are many reasons people (including transpeople) will not campaign on certain issues. The threats that women get for talking about this, I expect transpeople get just as bad abuse, maybe even worse. While we are 'terfs' and should die in a fire, they are 'truscum' and should die in a fire. I cannot fault anyone for not wanting to get in the path of these rabid TRAs.

Italiangreayhound
Peak trans I was sick to death of it 30 years ago , the occupants of the Trans Ghetto talk ", It ", from arse till breakfast !

I did what I had to do, and just got on with my life ,besides I am only small and to be honest I didn't want to associate myself with that , for the rest of my life

am not on facebook, or twitter but keep in touch with a few men and women Like Stephen , and a few others , but they have their lives and I have mine , we don't live in each others pockets

someone will ask me a favour , and I will do whats asked if I can , but my main life is now campaigning for cuts in G&O services and NHS waiting times as I worked in medicine before my retirement

I don't know any of the TG activists , I hold interesting dinner partys for interesting people , and laugh at how absurd life really is

please don't any of you worry about some of these foolish young people saying and doing silly stuff , life is too short

Like many of you I will be watching CTMW tonight nd probably sobbing all the way through , I met Jennifer Worth many years ago
am Stephen will pop along shortly to answer any questions

best wishes

Thank you for the thread- the first half of which was particularly interesting, thoughtful and moving. Thank you to Stephen, Jaycee, everlasting for your openness and transparency

Shortly after those threads there was a thread with a petition against self ID

The spartacus threads happened a long time before self-ID became a real possibility IIRC. The only petition I can remember seeing against self-ID was on citizengo. I won't sign anything on there because it's a right wing, anti-choice and homophobic site.

What were the Spartacus threads?

I'm not convinced that self ID is the most well thought out idea that's ever been presented. However, I couldn't bring myself to align with a group of women who seem so, well hateful.

For me the alternative to self ID is properly funded gender clinics, where people either get treatment or a signposted to more appropriate services, not shouting at people that they are really the gender that they don't think they are and probably rapists.

No one is asking for a roll back of trans rights

They very definitely ARE Nanny, they absolutely are.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3189967-Trans-debate-What-doe-people-want

How is that thread asking for a rollback of rights rat?

This is the best trans thread I’ve read on here.

@herecomesthesun1

...it is absolutely massively disproportionately lesbians who are targeted (by what we would have previously called 'straight men') as needing to accept any sexual partners who are of the "gender" they are attracted to - and LGBT organisations and so-called feminists are backing them up.

Can you tell me which LGBT organisations are telling you that you must accept sexual partners, you don't want.