Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

still be serious. Why would I tell you you have it worse or better than anyone?

You know feminism I'd not about one white person or one black person, one individual woman or one individual man. That would be meaningless.

If a person thinks in general men have it worse than women his could they 've a feminist fighting for females rights? What would be the point?

@IG I think you've misunderstood what the author is saying, she is not claiming that all men have it better than all women. She is claiming a degree of intersectionality in the patriarchy, that some (few) men benefit from it and many don't.

As an example, A Saudi Prince had a state visit to the UK this week. There are photos of him shaking hands with QEII, a woman and the Head of State and Mrs May, a woman and the head of Government.

Someone just arriving from Mars could assume that because there are two women in charge, women in general hold all of the power in the UK but we both know that's not true. Women are in both the most and least powerful positions in the UK. There are degrees of power and degrees of oppression.

@Stillscreaming Sat 10-Mar-18 19:54:53
"@IG I think you've misunderstood what the author is saying"

It would no be the first time!

Anyway, I have realized I said a few pages back I wanted to learn so I will sit on my hands and try and I would also very much like to listen about trans men as this is the theme of this thread. I wonder if any are reading and could share a bit with us.

I know x3 people transition/ed/ing from female to male. Won’t go into it as it’s identifying but yes, they definitely exist!

“ I wonder if any are reading and could share a bit with us”

Seconded.

There is a post from Stephen Whittle up thread, inviting questions. He's an incredible accomplished and admired human rights activist, who was at the vanguard of trans rights.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Whittle

Hi Stephen and Jaycee,

I am enjoying reading both your posts and it is especially good to get more of the long view.

I think women’s rights are very fragile.

Thanks stillscreaming.

@stephen1955 would you be able to answer a few questions please?

I Spoke to Stephen about an hour ago, after getting the GK off to bed , will ask him to pop back later ,

we do have busy lives as Jaycee and I have already told you , we transitioned donkeys years ago , and don't even think about the short years we lived in the primary role

Most of us came to the conclusion of who we are at a very early age 3 or 4c(without anyone else intervention )

I took many savage beatings from my mother , every time I mentioned it , she was trying to knock it out of me !

I will be up for a bit yet , will try and answer any questions , as Jaycee knows my ex B/F was a stealth Transman the only one to serve his prison sentence in 3 different male jails

but if one of the questions is what makes a woman , I am sure each of you will have different views on that

I cant speak for anyone else , and I don't know any of these new Transgender Activists ,
when we passed through the system we went through years of evaluation , we had to tow the line and not cause trouble or bring ourselves to the attention of The Media , as part of us being treated

we had to conform , to what particular Dr thought constituted Transsexuality

It's really kind of you to respond.

1. As someone who's never had any problems in her I skin, I don't know what it feels like for other people not to see what I know to be true about myself. What's that like, how does it feel to have had body that you couldn't continue to live in?

1. Do you know anyone who regretted their decision to transition?

@EverlastingLove thanks for responding. May I ask if you are a trans man or a trans woman? I am sure you posted on the thread earlier but I've been reading it over a number of days and my brain is a bit addled. I wanted to try and ask Stephen or any trans man....

How they felt about the very high numbers of girls presenting as trans now?

The prevalence of requests about binders etc? Does anyone see anything worrying in that?

Do any trans men who transitioned a long time ago feel nervous about how many young teens girls are presenting in this way?

And do any feel nervous about self id and what this might mean for resources in the future and for how trans people may be perceived.

Lastly, if a trans man was presenting as a lesbian girl before transitioning how do they now feel about presenting as a lesbian?

These are, of course, very personal questions and I will not be remotely offended if they are not answered. So please do not feel any pressure or convey any pressure to Stephen.

Many thanks, I am off to bed now.

I just want to say thank you to all of those who have transitioned who have commented here, and answering questions without aggression.

I have concerns because from what I know of women with Autism, they often develop sexually later, can be highly confused about their sexuality, which with often finding men easier to relate to could well cause them to be uncertain about gender identity. Which does worry me incase some get swept up into the "wrong" solution for their problems. And I was just speaking to a woman yesterday who whilst at University very publicly "came out" and became the LGB (not T in those days) officer. However in her 30s discovered she was actually sexually attracted to men (and not really to women). I just wonder if nowadays she might have thought that as she seemed to think more like a male that that was her identity?

Same here

“I just want to say thank you to all of those who have transitioned who have commented here, and answering questions without aggression. “

Bekabeech: Yes, I have family members with autism and exactly the experience you describe.

My youngest is 13 and advanced academically for her age. Emotionally she is several years behind , she has felt confused as to why she has no interest in boys at all when other girls seem obsessed with boys.

She announced she's a lesbian and thinks she's a boy but wouldn't want to have an op. She's spoken with cousins etc and understands with autism she really should just wait and see, as the feeling of not fitting in is the most prevalent.

After tears and worries shared she is a much brighter girl now looking forward to discovering who she is, rather than already boxing herself into a description she is too emotionally young to interpret.

IME experience people with autism reach emotional maturity later (25ish). It is a worrying trend to attempt to define and label sexuality so young, enjoy the journey and discover for yourself who you are was my advice to my daughter.

(To clarify - I don't think people change sex after operations/hormones) and if my daughter later decides she wanted to transition - she would be a female choosing outward presentation of male - wouldn't make her male).

This is my daughters's view too (science kind of girl) and she is skipping around, happy in her own skin now. She said recently - might not rule boys out completely. I said: you will fall in love with a person one day and get a bit more insight into who you are, don't worry about any of it. So she is still thinking about who she is, but just not worrying about it now and fully comfortable to chat about how she changes her mind ten times a day. She is confident her parents will be happy with any partner that makes her happy.

unfortunately her friends (many on ASD spectrum) are making announcements via group chats that they are defining as animals, pan sexual, asexual., lesbian, boy. Trying to define who they are attracted to is the issue for them as really they aren't attracted to anyone yet. She said she worries for them as they seem so unhappy and tells them - you're young, you don't have sexual feelings yet so just wait until you do and then decide.

I can't believe the difference in her - the sexualised society kids are exposed to everywhere is making some of them question why they don't yet have sexual feelings and trying to find answers they don't need to worry about yet.

This thread has been really enlightening, thank you to all posters.

jaycee I really feel like I understand dysphoria from your posts - I get it. I hear it’s not so much gender feelings as a dissonance between the mind and body and the understanding that it’s by changing the body that you will remove the dissonance whilst also understanding the limitations and risks of that. I can see there are as you say, a small number of people that feel like that, and I get it, thank you.

@aRespectableBureaudeChange I am so glad your daughter has come through this and is thinking differently. I am also concerned for all the girls on the ASD spectrum who are being convinced they are trans when they are not. You sound like a great mum.

I agree too, "I just want to say thank you to all of those who have transitioned who have commented here, and answering questions without aggression."

It is so nice to have conversations and try and understand each other's perspective.

@jaycee I can imagine it is emotionally draining to explain about your previous experiences, so thank you for being willing to engage so well.

A good friend of mine is FtM transitioning. He was deeply unhappy as a woman and turned to alcohol to cope. He's now been living very happily as a man for three years.

Still screaming
I kid you not , i took some pretty bed beatings from my mother , nothing would have stopped me ! becoming the woman i knew i was (whatever anyone else thinks )

one of the reason Stephen and i have always got on is we are both determined sods and believe me you would have to have been crazy or determined to do all this

about regrets , most men and women the only regrets we have is not being able to do it sooner ,back then we had to wait till we were 21

my boyfriend had his top done just after his 21st birthday althoiugh he had been living as a boy since about 14 , taking Restandol (Testostrone ) from about 15 he looks like a very good looking David Essex

after my GRS i reached Trans Peak 3 decade go ! walked away and got on with my life

I don't know about the young women now transitioning to male , but suspect its getting on a rollercoaster ,
the only ones i have heard of who detransitioned are the ones who get reported in the papers the biggest was one who detransitioned and is now back transitioning again

which is why it should be pretty tough to get through living the RLT , as it was in our day and if it helps we all believe these should be Psych evalution and living the RLT before any Gender is Recognised

If Self Id ever comes in ? the person selfiding will have to change their name by deed poll, and swear an oath that they intend to live as a man/woman until they die , as we have had to do

I understand your anger , about self ID , but self iding isn't law at the moment , nobody can just say i am a woman today , as this the women planning the swim

once somebody self id,s they had better make sure their driving license , insurance on their car is for a male to drive

without the official name change and or the oath sworn , any woman wanting to swim with a bare chest most likely would be arrested section 5 public order , fingerprints taken DNA etc and plastered across the papers people made to look a laughing stock

about binding You would have to ask Stephen or any transman about that , but there are some videos on youtube
please believe me nobody walks this road unless they have to

the attached pic of an out Transman might help you understand
any parent would be proud to call him her son

The lesbian didn't happned to my ex B/F he was adamant he was Mr Straight , he wouldn't have anything to do with lesbians or gays or other transpeople , he saw me as everyone else does as a woman i have never had to validate myself as a woman ! am sure none of you have either ?

one incident i remember he had shaved his beard off i had bought him some nice aftershave we bumped into another Transman , my boyfriend freaked out because the other transman said he smelt nice , the transman identified as a gay man

One of the things many menopausal women might learn about the change , as a woman who has been taking HRT for 43 years as i have (they were only intended for short vterm use 5 maybe 6 years ) Trans women and Trans men have been used as guinea pigs
since Dr Michael Dillions time (pic attached ) the first successful transman in the 1950,s he was romantically attached to Roberta Cowell , and i have to admit i get on better with Transmen than transwomen
the guys like Stephen actually listen to you , don't cut across you i suppose we understand each other

i remember talking with a very old transguy called Eddie who still is the funniest man i have ever known , we were talking about school and i was telling how in the 1960,s my mother made me wear a balaclava , Eddie piped up ! Oh I used to dream of wearing a balaclava !
most of us have very wicked sense of humours , you would have to have to hhave to laugh at the crainess of the whole damm thing

some things you might find amusing my ex B/F had to come off his testosterone before he had his chest seen to , , the result he started his periods again , at work too , he worked as an engineer in an all male workforce , he told his workmates he was ill , tyhis was before mobile phones , someone rang me i got over there , he was cowering in the gent loo , i managed to clean him up and clean the toilet so nobody knew , as i was a medical professional told the guys she had passed a huge kidney stone !
my boyfriend refused to wear ST,S , so had to use kitchen rolls and toilet paper

after he had his hysterectomy and had his penis , it wasn't an issue he played football with the lads and got in the showers with them , i got some ribbing as his manhood was larger than all the other men , he got an appropriate name to go with it

i cant comment on what makes men fancy men or women women , but a great many F2M are gay men or Bi-sexual , as is Transwomen its the same as with natal males and natal females

please beware not all the people claiming to be Trans on here actually are , having spoken to a few via PM their backstory doesn't stand up , ie nobody remembers them at whatever GIC they claim to attended or the meds they claim to have taken weren't prescribed back then

but most of us oldies just got on with our lives , its opened up a few old wounds for me trying to help you understand

the most heartbreaking tales i have ever heard is from the Trans widows , take it from me those are Fettishistic Transvestites i wont try and defend the undefendable ,
but i don't understand others being rabid about saying trans women aren't women ! i know that , thankfully nobidy has ever accused me of being that , I am just a remould , ha ha

and if it helps i am very old Labour , but left the party after the Lovely John Smith death , one of the reasons i am not with my ex B/F now is he joined the BNP !

Love Peace and Empathy

That was a very much from the heart post, everlasting. Thanks you.

I hope it will help you all that most of us who DO have a Gender Recognition Certificate (all few thousands of us) are saying much the same thing.

That we believe in the safeguards built into the existing Gender Recognition Act and, whilst we have no objection to making it easier, we do feel for the protection of BOTH society and the transitioner that the medical assessment and evidence of permanence and successful integration as required are there for good reason.

In another thread a rather angry poster said something to the effect that they are fed up of reading us posting this and if we are genuine then we should be organising campaigns and protests.

I have not answered in that thread as I think the post was a little too angry for me to give a considered reply. But will answer that point here.

There is a 37 page thread on here mostly full of people signing up to a petition to repeal the entire GRA. As I imagine you will not be surprised to hear I do not support that - though I do support not bringing in the extreme reforms planned. Otherwise I might well have signed that petition myself.

But the reality is that - as you have seen from the figures we have posted - there are allegedly up to 600,000 trans identifiers of one of the various gender fluid/self ID version who want to get a certificate but not to follow the requirements to do that. There are under 10,000 of us who DO have a certificate because we agree with the restrictions and were willing to follow the rules and requirements.

Of these many are older trans people who transitioned decades ago - the 70s in Stephen Whittle and my case - the 80s - in Everlasting's case I think. Most of us have not intruded into your lives or made a fuss or sought to do idiotic things like redefine mothers day as guardians day to 'protect trans people's feelings'. They are not protecting mine as I regard such nonsense as not just stupid but insulting to mothers.

But there in lies the problem. There seem to be hundreds of thousands of these new school trans identifiers being offended at every little thing and wanting to redefine the universe. And they are listened to loudly because the media promote them. The media always promote stuff they know will anger the majority as uttered by vociferous minorities as it sells papers to the majority.

In opposition are the few thousand people who have done what was required to be registered and just got on with our lives many of whom are probably not even aware what is going on as they may not be in chat rooms or even on the internet if older. And we are not in activist movements or support groups as we were 'cured' long ago and stopped thinking of ourselves day to day as trans before any of these activists were even born.

So we could not organise any kind of meaningful petition or campaign because our numbers are tiny compared with either the activists or the millions of women who come on here.

My guess is most of us would support any reasonable campaign to retain the GRA protections that have worked and to be very careful about extending it to hundreds of thousands of others unchecked.

But that is not what seems to be being called for and so I think we felt the best thing to do was make our views known - on here and elsewhere. I have certainly said these same things on other major public forums - for example Digital Spy and on the ITV Tonight page following their recent programme on trans children.

So we are not hiding but, just like with our trans status, we are conscious of both our sincerity and our limitations.

I know of four.

One is 18, two are thirties and another fifty odd.

I just think because it's f to m the anti trans feminists don't care and you hear less about it.

Feral, I know a lot more f > Male trans.

I think they're highlighted a lot less because it's a hell of a lot easier for a woman to pass as a man than vice versa. Theyll be using men's toilets and changing rooms etc without any fuss and drama because theyre un noticed.

Jaycee - thank you!

That we believe in the safeguards built into the existing Gender Recognition Act and, whilst we have no objection to making it easier, we do feel for the protection of BOTH society and the transitioner that the medical assessment and evidence of permanence and successful integration as required are there for good reason.

Yes. I know 4 transsexual people in real life, one is a family member. Every one of them is against removing the 'gatekeeping' and say that obviously having sex dysphoria is a requirement to be trans in the first place. Without dysphoria, how on earth are you trans? Seems to be the new fangled MRA types that are causing issues, and unfortunately most transactivists are these types, and they are the ones getting listened to. I don't think it is wrong to call these people extremists, thats what they are. ATHs manifesto surely proves this, and this is a group advising the government on law changes ffs.

I really do believe that modern day transactivism is damaging to women, children AND transsexual people.

Hi jaycee thanks for that. Thanks so much for sharing.

I do believe the only answer is to join up. Have you had a chance to look up A Woman’s Place? What they are asking for us essentially the current equalities act to be upheld and I think they are sympathetic to changes being made to make it easier to get a GRC- or at least quite a few speakers at their events have said this.

The thing all these women are frightened of is self-id. There seems to be a lot of common ground between older members of the trans community and what most feminists and campaigners are saying. It might be worth engaging if you can.

It’s not just a few thousand trans people with GRCs if they want to stand up and be counted against self-id. It’s also thousands of women and that number is rising. The debate can get hot but it is a supportive one.