Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

Pencils, I am sorry if you think I was being passive aggressive. I really wasn't. I just took your post to be confrontational and I am not on here looking for a confrontation. Just trying to find common ground.

I had already commented on what you ask (as someone else asked it previously) in another post somewhere - there are so many threads in here and I have posted in many and they are hard to find as so many posts appear hourly that they slip off the bottom of a very long list - so I have lost track of what I said where.

But anyway I already had given my views on the GRA and the planned changes to my local MP. I happen to live near one of her deputies.

As for the 'petition', as noted above it was the 1000 post thread that I was saying I could not sign up to as the Sex Matters document, whilst not without good points, in my view is too sweeping.

I am not looking to lead any campaign. By coming on here I have rather exposed myself as it is. Two separate readers have PMd me to say they have recognised who I am from my posts. And I am not remotely famous I should add, so not really sure how they did.

I am not afraid of saying what I think on this matter but I trust you understand with some of the comments that are posted on here from a few on this board that I would not want to put my family through more grief if someone should take it upon themselves to use that knowledge and start kicking off some kind of hate campaign.

I know 99% of you are not in the least going to consider such a thing and if it was just me then I would not give two hoots anyway. But my family have already had those prior media stories to deal with and it would be unfair of me to put them through it again.

TheGoal - no, I wasn't taking the piss by saying that at all. But do you see how it came across? I was galvanised, I was angry, I'd already been 'spoken to' at work about my views (I'm a HCP) and there were all these threads on MN expressing outrage and I wanted to actually DO something and didn't know how and was essentially met with mumbling while I was seeing more and more threads every day constantly going on about what was happening. I couldn't see much more than talk and no action.

And I do think it's still the case for the majority of the posters who are happy to air their views anonymously on MN and whip up or join in fear and outrage then just close their browser. So I think it's a bit rich to start having a go at people that trans decades ago about 'farting about on MN'

Comments such as the following in answer to the question, "what does everybody want?", (I quote):

Repeal of the ridiculous Gender Recognition Act

And a good number seeking to have transgenderism publicly recognised as the delusional of the mentally unwell or sexually perverse. Shall I copy and paste a few of those too?

Sorry Nanny, that above post was in response to your asking me how that thread showed posters advocating for the revoking of rights for transpeople.

Ah rat I see it. That is two posters on a whole thread. They don’t represent most of what I’ve seen discussed and debated by femninsts and MNers. Even that nemisis of the TRA Jennifer James says the application for the GRC should be made free to help with the process.

Almost everyone I have discussed this with, on here and in real life, is supportive or trans people bs current trans rights but not of the changes in the GRA to introduce self id.

Because that would be a disaster for women and the current trans community.

@ RatRolyPoly

Anyone who can read knows the amount of hate, misinformation and disrespect splashing around in that thread and that anyone claiming there isn't is being disingenuous. With all love and respect to you, please don't post loads of examples.

I'll be honest Nanny, I've debated with a good number of lovely posters on the fem boards who would simply like self-id to be shelved and for transpeople to be supported.

I've also debated with a significant number - perhaps a minority, but perhaps also done of the loudest voices on those boards - whose views are either explicitly the rolling back of trans right, or tantamount to it. And they very definitely are trying to win over the former group.

But anyway, I don't way to derail a wonderful thread.

I want going to Stillscreaming, don't worry. I wrote that as an invitation to be allowed to avoid doing so

Also, what you see as nastiness about perversion or delusion is just people trying to bash out in discussion where the lines are.

Most people aren’t saying this is an easy fix issues. How do you let women who would not feel comfortable with a male bodied person opt out of being treated by one but up hold the rights of a trans person to work outside of sex based exemptions.

There is clearly an issue there around consent.

Women are currently being told that we have to accept anyone into our spaces, no questions asked. That raises alarm bells. Not because we think trans people of untrustworthy. But because we KNOW that untrustworthy people will take advantage of that situation.

So, again, how do you challenge an obviously male person in a female space who is behaving in a way that feels threatening if sex based exemptions have been removed? And I’m not talking about changing rooms. I’m talking about women’s support groups etc.

“Almost everyone I have discussed this with, on here and in real life, is supportive or trans people bs current trans rights but not of the changes in the GRA to introduce self id”

Seems like a solution????????

What did I miss?

(As we are doing old comedy references, I feel like the girl who realised that her idea would work and “no one would have to get nailed to anything” in THGTTG)

Nanny, that is very good to hear. It is quite possible I misinterpreted the tone of that thread as I simply saw posts like the above and others suggesting someone like me should not be allowed in the ladies any longer (bit of a shock at my age when you get caught short) and post after post with just one word Aye. Meaning - I assumed - they agreed.

I have no problem at all if the plan is as you suggest.

And I do agree that some posters on that thread do not express themselves well. I’m not being disingenuous. I just don’t see it as hate, in most cases. I see it as people trying to get their head around a whole load of new terminology and boundaries. Where is the line. One side has it drawn at transwomen are women, end of. And the other at trans women are men.

There is a middle ground nd most of us are trying to get there.

And toilets are a red herring. Unisex with an open front and floor to ceiling cubicles would solve a lot of problems. No one should be worrying about popping to the loo.

@nanny, if you're looking for middle ground, would you be good enough to give up using the 'cotton ceiling' as a stick to beat trans women with. would you, personally just drop that?

In return, I'll give up the phrase ' cis'. How would you feel about that?

You're being very generous I think Nanny, rather than disingenuous. That isn't the only thread where posters whose names you would undoubted recognise as definitely not trying to get their heads around things have expressed similar sentiments.

I see where you're coming from though, most people are in the middle ground, I'm sure. So transwomen are women most of the time, but sometimes that needs to be reviewed.

Which is exactly what it says in the law.

And unfortunately not at all what it says in that thread about "sex matters".

@nanny

Here is where, in this thread, trans women are accused of perversion.

Autogynephilia is a very large part of how visible transwomen are..they want to be noticed, they want to stand out, they want their own way and will scream and shout til they get it.

Autogynephilia, isn't an accepted diagnoses, it's theorised by a single man and it's grown legs. Here is what it's used to mean:

"a man's paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman."

True rat but this does feel like a position that a lot of people have been forced into.

The current legislation is the middle ground. There is a very loud and, increasingly successful group of activists working to change that.

I agree that trans people with a GRC should be identified as their new sex and left to get in with their lives. As far as I am concerned these trans women are women. But there probably still need to be a few exemptions for sex for these people for medical purposes and perhaps sports as well it seems only fair.

But that is not what is being preached now by activists and charities such as Mermaids and Action for Trans Health.

Now the push is for every GNC person to immediately self id as the opposite gender and for sex based exemptions not to apply to them.

It doesn’t seem logical that you can properly do both: have self id and instantly recognise someone as another sex and exempt them from sex based restrictions in law.

The fury on the feminism board should comes from the fear, not of trans people but of the tactics and misogyny of the activists. Which very much feels like an MRA agenda.

still did you read that link I found for you?

P.S- no one gets to label me anything without my permission first. That’s called name calling

please don't any of you worry about some of these foolish young people saying and doing silly stuff , life is too short

Problem is, these foolish young people are likely to be getting laws changed, and its these foolish young people who are pushing for GNC kids to be given puberty blockers, going round schools teaching kids that its possible to actually change sex (and that it should be done if you follow the wrong stereotypes), bullying businesses into ending sex segregation, and bullying young lesbians into sleeping with them and their penises.

Yes, people should be able to say no to any sexual partner, but peer pressure and such is making this difficult for some. A close friend of mine was actually physically assaulted for refusing to shag a male bodied person. The person passed well (while friend was drunk anyway) and she doid not discover they were male until they were alone. When she found out this, she said she was gay so no thanks, was called a transphobe and punched. The person left (luckily, it did not get worse) soon afterwards, and it began spreading around our town how transphobic my friend is. She began being shunned by people. For..being a lesbian. So its really not as easy as some make out it is, with this 'anyone can say no for any reason' stuff. Especially not for younger people, who crave acceptance more than older more secure people, from my experience.

It is quite impossible to ignore them, as they are everywere, and they are loud and actually getting things changed.

TheGoal - no, I wasn't taking the piss by saying that at all. But do you see how it came across? I was galvanised, I was angry, I'd already been 'spoken to' at work about my views (I'm a HCP) and there were all these threads on MN expressing outrage and I wanted to actually DO something and didn't know how and was essentially met with mumbling while I was seeing more and more threads every day constantly going on about what was happening. I couldn't see much more than talk and no action.

Yeah I understand where you are coming from, I think I may possibly remember your thread too.

Here is where, in this thread, trans women are accused of perversion.

Some transwomen. Not all. Surely this does not need saying?

still did you read that link I found for you?

I did but it didn't make clear for me why some lesbians feel that they are too delicate to tell people giving them unwanted sexual attention to sod off or why unwanted sexual attention it's worse coming from trans women than from anyone else.

TIM is also nasty name calling, do you challenge that?

Cher's son(daughter)

Pencils - I apologise, I found it. It wasn't a petition explicitly on self ID it was a petition to 'review how laws based on gender identity conflict with laws based on biological sex'.

It was posted on 09/10/2016 and had around 70 MNetters posting that they'd signed. Many said they wouldn't share it on social media due to being scared. Clicking on it today, the entire petition had 932 supporters - many of whom wouldn't have been MNetters.

The first Spartacus thread was just a few weeks before on 25.08.2016. There was more than one and posts went into the thousands.

I can't find the thread at the time I posted on wondering why the petition had so little support when so many MNetters were 'Spartacus' because I can't remember what it was called and I change my NN very regularly (because I work in forensic MH and don't have any social media presence like FB or Twitter and won't build up a potential SM profile because I work with some dangerous people) and I also change my MN email account regularly since Jeffrey.

Now the push is for every GNC person to immediately self id as the opposite gender and for sex based exemptions not to apply to them.

Just as a point of fact, Conservatives are NOT considering removing the sex based exemptions; apparently those are not up for grabs. And I think that's a very good thing.

In my opinion so long as those remain in place and those with the authority to use them are held to account to do so where women would be vulnerable, then I'm mostly ambivalent about self-id. Because whether or not getting a GRC is long and medicalised or short and easy would make it no easier or harder for men to abuse women, because the safeguards would protect us either way.

The people it would make a difference to are transpeople. Now I'm torn about whether I'm out and out opposed to self-ID or not on those grounds, because some transpeople want it and some don't want what they've been through to be trivialised or for support to be withdrawn. I respect both opinions.

I rather prefer to oppose self-id I think, mostly because I think that the current GRC requirements in conjunction with the sex-based exemptions protect women better than relying on overstretched, disinterested or easily pressured authorities and governing bodies to implement protective measures sufficiently. But that's just where I'm at right now.

Fair enough. I though she was pretty clear about the erosion of lesbian culture, but each to their own.

I wasn’t aware that TiM is a slur. I haven’t seen it objected to before. Don’t think I’ve used it on this thread but I I won’t again now you’ve pointed that out.

But you were well aware that cis is considered offensive by most feminists and gender critical women but you mentioned it anyway and tried to use it as leverage to get me to shut up about something you objected to. Pretty shitty debating tactic really.

Some transwomen. Not all. Surely this does not need saying?

No, there were absolutely no qualifiers that it was 'some' trans women. Nothing to qualify it as an opionion and not a statement of fact. When something is presented as a fact about a whole group, that's the very definition of prejudice.