What kind of person jumps off a cliff with two children? **MNHQ warning: upsetting content**

[Leafyhouse]

I've been really shaken by that story about the woman stabbed at home, and the father found at the bottom of the cliff with 2 dead children, 10 and 7.

Their home is about 400 yards away from me. I also have 2 DS's, aged 8 and 10. It's just made me sick to the core. Police and forensic officers all over this lovely house, in a really nice area - and for what? Why would someone do that? Have your own problems, but why take the children?

Just reeling at the moment, am going to hug my kids extra tight tonight. This one's just so very close to home.

Family annihilators usually have a long history of domestic abuse and violent, controlling behaviour. I can't believe so many people are offering up mental illness as an excuse! In most cases it is part of a clear pattern of behaviour, not a moment of sickness.

Isn't it usually a man who when his wife rejects him says if I can't have you no one can and then takes away the things that matter most - her children.

We need to look at how we as a society are bringing up men - what on earth makes them seek such terrible revenge? And mistake ownership for love.

And yes I know that women do it too but way less often.

And what is your thinking on staying to protect the children limon?

There are men that are a higher risk to those children without the mother supervising.

Plus you're AGAIN putting the responsibility, the blame on a victim. Not on the perpetrator.

What we do need is to change this ridiculous attitude that it's ALWAYS better for children to have contact with their fathers REGARDLESS of that fathers history - including abuse of them directly.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=pSRJwe7-TZc

Jess Phillips reading out a list of the names of all the women who've been murdered this year. She had to add three more names to the list that Karen Ingala Smith gave her last week, one of whom was Laura Figueira de Farida who is the woman stabbed multiple times by her husband before he bundled their children in their car, drove 2 hours to Beachy Head and then murdered them too.

I have no sympathy.

I am so shocked that people are so keen to diagnose mental illness and to attempt to find virtue in anything these evil, evil man has done.

Helmetbymidnight "I think if any violent men read MN, they can rest easy. People will think the best of them no matter what they do." Sadly, this comment is so fucking true!

He was not a victim. He was the perpetrator.

Graphista was quoting your post, LimonViola, where you said I think it's more to do with the fact that people recognise that if it were terrible in the home the adult woman had the chance to leave with and protect her children.

That's why I leapt to the conclusion it was your views you were explaining.

I don't need to check myself, thanks.

elton but that means trying to keep ALL the women that might come into contact with the man safe - they ALL need to adjust their behaviour....

Surely its better for everyone to change the man? Or lock up if that doesn't work?

italian saying someone was mentally unstable in order to do such a terrible thing does not absolve them of guilt or paint them as a victim. It simply acknowledges that the normal state of the male human brain is not one in which he will kill his entire family. I think it is right to make that assertion because the mindbogglingly overwhelming majority of men do nothing of the sort.

I think it is right to make that assertion because the mindbogglingly overwhelming majority of men do nothing of the sort.

Framing your lack of understanding of personality disorders like sociopathy, psychopathy and narcissistic personality disorder as "mental illness" is not helpful. Did Ted Bundy have a mental illness? Or do you think he made a choice to rape and kill countless women and girls?

Why are you presenting 'mental illness' and 'choice' as mutually exclusive options?

You can have a mental illness and still exercise choice no?

Having mental illness doesn't absolve you of guilt and it doesn't take your agency away.

Anyone who serially rapes or murders is mentally ill AND making the decision not to deal with their illness in a way that would prevent harm to others.

I love that speech

As she rightly said if people in a certain profession or sport died at that rate there would be an outrage

I also suspect that people blaming MH are maybe not as availed of the information that many other posters are . I learnt a lot about abuse and abusers from this website . I was pretty ignorant a few years ago . Even some
Of my friends are pretty clueless about quite how bad it is

Morphine Mental health is very complicated, in the most extreme cases someone who is so mentally ill is no longer in control of their choices and can not feel guilt.

I’m not making any excuses for anyone that does this kind of thing, we don’t know if this man was mentally ill but working in mental health I can understand that some people lose control of reality, psychosis can cause you to see, hear and feel things that are not real. Depression and the feeling of being at rock bottom can make people do things that you could never imagine them doing.

And yes, most people that murder, take their own lives or abuse others have got some kind of mental illness.these are not things a sane person does?

A very sad story and I don’t think people should judge, no one knows what was going through his head and we never will. My thoughts are with their family and friends who must be in total shock right now

Statistically, a man who can only cope with life and his fragile sense of self by having control over his family. Who deep down doesn't fully understand that his family exist as separate beings from himself. Usually with a history of violence, depression, and coercive control. Toxic masculity at its extreme of explosive, destructive rage.

Or someone having a psychotic episode. Or both.
My health visitor asked me if I thought exp was likely to do something like this. I agreed he fitted the profile.

I think the common understanding of mentally ill is someone essentially blameless, hence people's distaste for it being applied to fairly cold blooded controlling murderers on this thread. I don't have any pity for Ted Bundy who manipulated to the last.

This thread makes me think of this.

Sociopathy, that's what makes men do this to their families. Psychosis rarely, rarely, is behind these things.

@Morphene

"italian saying someone was mentally unstable in order to do such a terrible thing does not absolve them of guilt or paint them as a victim. It simply acknowledges that the normal state of the male human brain is not one in which he will kill his entire family. I think it is right to make that assertion because the mindbogglingly overwhelming majority of men do nothing of the sort."

It does not mean that anyone who murders their wife, or their kids, or commits suicide is necessarily mentally ill. You cannot say all crime is down to mental illness.

"Anyone who serially rapes or murders is mentally ill AND making the decision not to deal with their illness in a way that would prevent harm to others." Is being a selfish bastard who cares not a jot for the consequences of their actions a new mental illness?

Murderer.

Mental health is very complicated, in the most extreme cases someone who is so mentally ill is no longer in control of their choices and can not feel guilt.

I have worked in forensic mental health units. The people who I worked with who killed people purely because of their mental health (usually persecutory voices) were chronically unwell for many years before these incidents.

We do not know the background of this case but it's likely he probably wasn't suffering from an acute psychotic episode, especially as it probably required some form of planning and rational thinking. Suppose it makes people feel better if there's a reason, but sometimes the reason is that someone isn't very nice.

People never kill due to 'mental health'. That's like saying people get breathless due to 'lung health'. People are assuming this man was mentally ill. And he probably wasn't.

Why has 'mental illness' been replaced with 'mental health'? "She's got mental health" means someone is mentally healthy? No? But it doesn't these days, it means she is mentally ill. People use "mental health" to try and remove stigma, while using a euphemism, and the stigma of 'being mentally ill' remains. Bizarre.

People who think this murderer violently killed his wife and then his DC are both naive about male violence and ignorant about mental illness.

Because of a “mental health problem” that is.

Why is it so hard to accept that some men are nasty, violent abusers?

I can sense a lot of anger here . And I am not sure that anger or disagreement between posters is necessarily the best or kindest way to express this anger personally

At some stage the family and friends will go online . Dwell on it - and they might come across this thread . Seeing people argue online between themselves could really feel disrespectful .

At some stage the family and friends will go online . Dwell on it - and they might come across this thread . Seeing people argue online between themselves could really feel disrespectful.

Disrespectful to who exactly? The husband/father's family - really I think they will know exactly what people think of him and this will be the least of their problems, poor people. Disrespectful to the woman and her children when people condemn their murder? How is that disrespectful? (well I accept the weird comments about better for the children to die might bother family members but those are off the wall)

If she were killed in a park by a stranger, no one would think it disrespectful -either to her family or her murderer's family - to condemn the killing.

My grandmother leapt off local cliffs almost 70 years ago. My aunt (her daughter) jumped in front of a tube 20 years ago. Both died. Both had children. Both my cousin and I have had suicidal ideation. I never felt my children ought to die with me, neither did I plan on killing my husband. I feel I have no right to judge but as someone who has been suicidal - someone whose prognosis is guarded- I can say all I feel is sorrow. Perhaps he was ill;perhaps he was a murderer: a family annihilator. I feel, really, that we ought to help or support these families ( thru either parent). Trying to untangle these awful and thankfully rare events doesn't help.

A number of years ago there was a mum who had known mental health issues who barely left her home but on this day she left home with her baby and toddler and pushed them through town in their pram, climbed the local hill, not easy with a heavy pram, she then fed and changed the baby and jumped to her death taking both children with her, it really upset the locals at the time for obvious reasons. She'd written a note using the toddlers crayon before she left the house.