What kind of person jumps off a cliff with two children? **MNHQ warning: upsetting content**

[Leafyhouse]

I've been really shaken by that story about the woman stabbed at home, and the father found at the bottom of the cliff with 2 dead children, 10 and 7.

Their home is about 400 yards away from me. I also have 2 DS's, aged 8 and 10. It's just made me sick to the core. Police and forensic officers all over this lovely house, in a really nice area - and for what? Why would someone do that? Have your own problems, but why take the children?

Just reeling at the moment, am going to hug my kids extra tight tonight. This one's just so very close to home.

@Neverender

Neighbours reported arguing was common ,so common in fact that it didn't cause concern.
Why it happened is obvious...the next step in domestic abuse. A culmination of male violence.

The more we name these things as they are,the less we use wide eyed innocence as to why it happened,hopefully occurrences like this will be less common(despite what the article said,this is very common). And it's not ok,it's not excusable and we shouldn't waste time trying to find justification and hidden motives. It was male violence,it was domestic abuse.

That report also refers to it being 'an unusual and tragic case'. It's not. This complete commitment to a narrative that says it's unforseen; it couldn't be prevented; etc, is part of the problem.
If, we as a society, had a zero tolerance to DV and EA then we could change this. But it would mean taking women's fears and safety seriously and we are so far removed from that and getting further every single day.

My Great Great Grandmother jumped into the local river along with her 3 sons. Her husband had been murdered. This was 1902 so some time ago. The boys were saved but she wasn’t. She was clearly extremely mentally unwell and, I imagine, terrified of how to support them all. Having been suicidal myself I can sympathise with her on that level, but throwing her kids in first blows my mind. I feel so sorry for her that she felt she had to do that.

Yy @WooWooSister that's what bugs me the most. It's not that bloody rare and uncommon when two women a week are killed by their partner.
Maybe the "uncommon" factor is that he also killed himself. The loss of a man makes it all "noteworthy ".

It's the loss of two children, by their father, that makes it "noteworthy".

"I am simply asserting that obsessive control to the point of murder is a mental health problem. So lets try and treat people who suffer from this so that they don't actually kill anyone.

wanna you don't have to be psychic, as 100s of posters have pointed out there are almost always predictors in the form of DV before murder occurs."

So - people (men in this case) who commit DV are also mentally ill?

That report also refers to it being 'an unusual and tragic case'. It's not. This complete commitment to a narrative that says it's unforseen; it couldn't be prevented; etc, is part of the problem.
If, we as a society, had a zero tolerance to DV and EA then we could change this. But it would mean taking women's fears and safety seriously and we are so far removed from that and getting further every single day.

Yes to all of that.

The dominant narrative in society is male - the "stories" told - and they are around men as brave, strong protectors,

When things like this happen it must be a 1-off, an outlier, a rare and unusual tragedy

The alternative is to recognise that male violence permeates our society, and that a significant minority of men behave in ways that are the opposite of brave, strong and protective, and we can't have that.

It's really interesting when you start to unpick the narrative, the stories society tells about women and about men, how much is a massive reversal.

"the female of the species is more deadly than the male"

being a famous saying

and, if you stop to think of it for 0.2 seconds, utter bollocks

so much of that sort of stuff.

A controlling, narcissistic man. Usually. Someone who cannot accept that other people have autonomy.

This is an active choice by a certain type of man.

Women may suffer Post Partum psychosis and depression and harm themselves and their children. It's still pretty rare.

Men on the other hand annihilate their families with depressing regularity.

So - people (men in this case) who commit DV are also mentally ill?

Possibly. But having a mental illness doesn’t necessarily absolve you of responsibility for it. Nor does it mean that person is treatable. I think in these kind of cases there tend to be a lot of personality disorders which are notoriously difficult to treat and in some senses are deemed not desirable to treat because they benefit some people.

Psychopaths are quite common in senior management because they can be absolutely ruthless, ignore human cost and ethics and make huge amounts of money as a result. So it’s, not just tolerated, but idealised. That’s why a lot of the men who do things like this are successful men. It also means they can’t empathise with their families as separate individuals and just see them as an extension of themselves so if they destroy themselves they destroy their families too as they don’t see it as separate.

But they do choose their actions and they do know it’s wrong. Even plenty of people who have the same disorders will never do the same thing because they learn to play by the ‘rules’ enough to stay the right side of the law just for their own sake. So they’re very much responsible and make those choices when they have that sort of mental disorder.

And how are you supposed to ‘treat’ people for disorders which in a lot of cases society is telling them it gives them very desirable and useful characteristics.

.

This case could be domestic abuse too. We don't know.

It's still terribly sad for all involved.

graphista I'm not sure that mentioning two different things in the same post is actually compelling evidence that I think they are in any sense the same thing. I notice you didn't accuse me of conflating OCD with anorexia in spite of putting them not only in the same post but the same sentence......

Sometime people read things into a post that simply aren't there.

You chose to reference those conditions in a post on a thread about a man who in all likelihood was abusive in such a way as to give the impression people like that's "obsessive" tendencies are akin to those conditions.

OCD and eating disorders do have links actually - but I don't believe you knew that. To the point that people with very strong OCD issues are warned against undertaking weight loss without careful supervision. It works a little like cross addiction you can get "cross obsession" is a weird but accurate way of putting it - swapping one obsession for another.

Elton you have explained it really well.

And to extrapolate from someone having OCD or depression being responsible for and understanding their actions that someone in the grip of psychosis is too is wrong.

Yep.

I don't think many people who have never been around a person with psychosis can wrap their heads around how someone can lose touch with reality and really not be responsible for their actions.

Of course it is very rare for anyone with psychosis to hurt someone else, but it does happen. To compare it to other MH illnesses is a bit silly. It's so completely different.

I don't think for one minute that this man was psychotic by the way, but I don't understand why Elton has had some of the replies he/she has had.

I had a friend who was murdered by her former partner when she ended their relationship. His defence was that a particularly distressing incident in his job caused him to snap and he spent just one year in a psychiatric unit before being free to get on with his life. He murdered her by blasting her with a sawn-off shotgun that he had obtained specifically for this purpose. This was twenty years ago and it still makes me angry that he pretty much got away with it.

I knew someone from childhood (child of a friend of my mum's who we spent a fair bit of time with in the early years) who kidnapped his child, spend 3 years on the run and when the police finally came to his door closed the door, went inside shot his little kid, and shot himself.

I find it interesting that I don't know anyone who is related to someone murdered by a stranger but I know a lot of women who were raped and I know a man who killed his child and himself rather than let his ex have the child (that is why he killed his child of course)

If he was calculating and cruel then I would think he'd make sure his wife knew what he'd done to the children. That's what my abusive ex would have done so I think his mental health may have been a factor.

This story is so sad, it certainly appears that he killed his wife, then jumped off a cliff with his children. What thoughts must have been racing through those poor children's minds in those last few moments? Children adore their parents, without question they trust them, but how on earth did Dad explain what they were doing at the top of a cliff? Did he drag them and jump together? Did he push them and then jump himself? There have been many miraculous stories over the years where people have survived, what if those children had survived? Dad must have been out of his mind completely, but for me, it is the deaths of two innocent children and their final moments in fear that I find harrowing.

Look at OJ Simpson.

Classic DV. She left, he still controlled her. Found out she was seeing someone, he snapped, killed them both.

Then claimed HE was the battered husband! Acting in self defence!

And he never did serve time for Nicole’s murder. And she knew he would kill her one day.

He’s a vile narcissist. No empathy.

Oscar Pistorius the same. 100% I think she was leaving him, and he wouldn’t accept it.

Because in the court case, remember he was asked why Reeva Said ‘I’m frightened of you’. He answered ‘she was frightened of her love for me’

Arrogant fucking cunt. He was so damn amazing she was frightened of her feelings for him???

DV is everywhere.

graph Anorexia and OCD can be comorbid but that isn't the same as saying they stem from the same primary cause. There's a link between anorexia and transgender also I believe...(when one goes up the other goes down).

Anyway, as someone who has to occasionally go through the statistical evidence that OCD doesn't make you more likely to kill with my partner who suffers a pure 'o' type OCD I can assure I do not in fact believe there is any link between OCD and family annihilators - not matter what you read into my comments.

The point I was actually trying to make is that we see obsession overwhelming people and ruining their lives in some cases as mental illness and something it would be useful to treat to prevent further harm.

I don't know why someone being driven via an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT type of overwhelming obsession that involves men perpetrating DV would not also be seen as mental illness and treated, not least because they are hurting women and treatment could potentially prevent that.

Given the widespread nature of DV it looks like something there would be huge benefit in addressing the causes of. It seems to me you save more women's lives by finding causes and treating than by saying what basically amounts to 'abusive men will be abusive men'.

DV is so so sad, a huge issue in this country and one that affects children as well. While the story is upsetting, I'm not shocked. I've worked with victims of DV in the past and heard some harrowing stories. There's no limit to evil - one man was so jealous of his son that he interfered with the child's insulin. The drs couldn't figure out what was wrong, wife was distraught and all the time he knew. The child almost died. Even after that, a judge still granted visitation rights! Evil knows no bounds.

The justice system in this country is a joke. I'm all for children seeing their dad in case of separation - but in cases of DV that shouldn't be the case. That person has subjected the child to abuse (as DV is considered a safeguarding issue automatically), has behaved appallingly and violent, and should have no chance to inflict further damage on that child until it is proven he is no longer a risk.

The way the media reports things like this is disgusting. Seems almost sympathetic to the man, as though things got out of control and he 'snapped'. These aren't isolated behaviors. There has likely been abuse going on in the background long before the tragedy occurred. And yes the perpetrator may have had MH issues, substance abuse issues, etc. That doesn't mean it's acceptable. And it's no consequence to the abused partner. I've seen women feel guilty for 'rilimg him' as it 'affects his nerves'. No matter what his issues, it is not ok to abuse your partner and/or children.

The country's attitudes towards this kind of thing are part of the problem. Things would have been reported very differently if it was the mother who had done this. There's a focus on the children with the death of the mother as an afterthought - they are equally as horrific acts. Society in general is condoning of DV. My own mother (who has never been abused) seems to think there is a difference between DV when sober and drunk. Apparently when drunk it is OK and it's OK that the woman in question should go to bed early/get out of the way to keep safe. Likewise it's deemed OK in general that if a woman is 'sleeping around' then the man 'can't be expected to control his emotions'. We've still got a long way to go.

Only read the headline of the article because it made me want to cry. Those kids must have been scared out of their minds.