What kind of person jumps off a cliff with two children? **MNHQ warning: upsetting content**

[Leafyhouse]

I've been really shaken by that story about the woman stabbed at home, and the father found at the bottom of the cliff with 2 dead children, 10 and 7.

Their home is about 400 yards away from me. I also have 2 DS's, aged 8 and 10. It's just made me sick to the core. Police and forensic officers all over this lovely house, in a really nice area - and for what? Why would someone do that? Have your own problems, but why take the children?

Just reeling at the moment, am going to hug my kids extra tight tonight. This one's just so very close to home.

When a man kills his girlfriend there isn't this sympathy so much -

There've been 2 men I think recently who went into their GFs / ex GFs workplaces and murdered them, I don't remember the reaction being anything but horror and anger.

This sympathy, reserving judgement, seems to be reserved for when the victims live with the perpetrator / and / or they are killed at home... There's something there in the dynamic.

Anyone got any ideas about why the difference? Maybe it's a property thing, if they live together and it's done on "home turf" then it's different than going around to someone elses house to kill them, or their work?

This thread has reminded me of the idiots who left flowers for Raoul Moat, another abusive douchebag who attempted to kill his former partner for having the temerity to leave him, before killing another person and destroying god knows how many lives. Crazy.

"Anyone got any ideas about why the difference?"

Surely the difference is that in this case the guy then killed himself. The assumption must be that to kill yourself you must be mentally ill.

Snibble I wonder if it's because workplace murders have a larger ripple effect. They're witnessed by people outside the immediate relationship and they can see that there is no excuse, no mitigating factors for taking someone's life.It's a brutal, violent, unforgivable act.

Also there is a culture of shame and silence around DV and EA in long-term relationships that is sometimes lesser in gf/bf relationships (especially when they don't live together or are fairly new). That silence means that the murders come as a surprise to the people who will say 'oh they were a lovely family' or 'oh he was a very nice man'.

InSisu you are being disingenuous. There are lots of people talking about MH and about 'factors/reasons'. It's never been taboo to find mitigating factors for men's violence, in fact it's been almost obligatory.

I agree with you helmet entirely that those posters at the start of the thread shouldn’t have made those judgements and it’s sort of the point I’m trying to (badly). Making a simplistic division that he is either mentally ill and a victim or an evil bastard risks conflating two types of crime and either absolving those who should be blamed or condemning those who shouldn’t be.

It’s possible to have a mental illness and be a nasty bastard whose chosen to do something evil. It’s also possible to have a mental illness and do something awful because you are so ill you can’t be held responsible. We don’t really know which it is yet. I suspect the former but I don’t know.

It’s that division people are making between him either being mentally ill and a victim or sane and a monster I think is wrong. Some kinds of mental condition don’t absolve you of blame. Some do.

Those who commit crimes because they genuinely can’t perceive reality because of mental illness are very different from those with a mental illness who know exactly what they’re doing, know it’s wrong yet meticulously plan it and deliberately do it. Does that sort of explain what I mean?

But when men murder people who aren't related to them, there is rarely this search for explanations, even when they turn out to be mentally ill at the end.

That guy who decapitated a woman he didn't know in her back garden, there wasn't the same seeking for explanations / mitigation. Everyone came straight out and said fucking hell that poor woman.

"There are so many people who don't want to see it, it makes it that much harder for victims to speak out." Sadly there are even now people who DO see it but still "don't want to get involved" or feel like they're interfering.

"Anyone got any ideas about why the difference? Maybe it's a property thing, if they live together and it's done on "home turf" then it's different than going around to someone elses house to kill them, or their work?" I do think in large part it's because people victim blame. "She chose to stay with him" "if he was that bad she should've left" - but as those of us with experience know

A - it's not that easy - emotionally, practically or financially

B - there's the risk of men like this having unsupervised contact and "only" killing the children and themselves - there's been a few cases like that (that we know of).

Also because they think a crime like this will never happen to them, they're too strong/independent/intelligent to end up with/stay with an abusive man - a wrong belief but it still exists.

"But when men murder people who aren't related to them, there is rarely this search for explanations, even when they turn out to be mentally ill at the end." Have to disagree here - look at the school shootings in USA - lots of looking to blame it on mental illness there (especially when the shooter is white, middle class).

Poor woman, murdered in her home.
Poor children, murdered whilst in their family car.

Well yes, because as someone says above they kill themselves too. And we all associate suicide with MH and normally it arouses sympathy. So there is the jump to ‘it must be mental health poor man’. But mental health problems aren’t confined to nice people. Some really nasty violent people have MH issues and do really nasty violent things. The mental health may be the trigger, but there is something nasty and violent in them which means the MH manifests in such a nasty violent way.

have to disagree here - look at the school shootings in USA - lots of looking to blame it on mental illness there (especially when the shooter is white, middle class).

The rush to blame it on mental illness was to avoid blaming it on the out of control gun lobby. I guarantee you he will not sustain a mental health defence at trial. I don't think one person on MN said "poor boy, there must be a reason" about Cruz, the school shooter.

Sorry woo, but you're the one being disingenuous. You're deliberately misunderstanding what I actually wrote. I clearly did say I was talking in broader terms, about toxic masculinity. Not about this abhorrent crime in particular.
Yes, however many people find it offensive, I'll say it again for even more clarity, that a conversation to do with finding an end to this endemic male entitlement will have to include MH and childhood trauma. Even if it's to rule it out.
Sorry to whoever thinks I'm determined to be offensive. We are far, far behind Scandinavian countries when it comes to this stuff.
Also agree with and see where elton is coming from.

Scandinavian countries are not doing better with DV contrary to popular belief - a pp posted a link showing some of the evidence of that.

Pretty disgusting that even though you've had it pointed out to you how offensive you're being and you're labouring the point

Their approach to crime in general is much more rehabilitative which in turn has a more positive effect on society. I admit I don't have specific DV crime/reoffending stats to hand.
My opinion is just as valid as yours. Do you have any solutions or thoughts to offer on how to tackle these monstrous crimes in the long term?

I'm also local. I know both parents and children in the same class as the little boys who were killed.

Outwardly the (assumed) murderer seem patient and had socialised normally at football, birthday parties, school fairs etc.

My own perhaps unsophisticated view is that he could have done what he liked to himself -but stabbing his wife and taking his sons' lives is beyond evil.

I also assume, but don't know, that the grandparents are alive. If so imagine being retired, ageing in your 70s/80s and then having to face that your son -in -law (or son) did that to your daughter and grandchildren.

It's depressing, but I think much of how we understand these crimes has been shaped by the media.

There's very little drama in the narrative: utter shitehawk eventually kills wife after decades of abuse.

But there's much more to be spun in: Poor sad man about to be left by his (possibly slutty) wife has a moment of madness and turns into psycho killer.

We all know which of these narratives makes better clickbait.

"Do you have any solutions or thoughts to offer on how to tackle these monstrous crimes in the long term?"

The issue needs tackled much earlier on.

Challenging ALL misogynistic commentary and ideology.

Not excusing lower levels of violence by boys against girls when children.

Education and public information on what domestic violence and abuse is so that both victims and potential witnesses - even potential abusers - understand and recognise it.

Even on here (which is a relatively enlightened forum compared to some others) I was recently on a thread where op was raped in her sleep by her partner and the apologism and excuses were shocking!

Make it clear that these concerns can and should be reported.

DV and Domestic abuse needs to be taken MUCH more seriously by those with the power and authority to deal with the perpetrators - legislature and judiciary mainly. Too often men are given ridiculously light sentences for appalling acts of violence. Not only is that insulting to victims it means that even the idea of being prosecuted is no real deterrent. It perpetuates the message that it's acceptable to treat women and children this way.

As I and others have said, don't allow them unsupervised contact with the children.

Why are people associating diagnosing a mental health problem with absolving people of all guilt for their actions, or asserting this is the equivalent of having sympathy with them?

I have a mental health diagnosis. I am still to blame for my own actions and I don't require anyone's sympathy.

graphista why on earth do you find the statement that OCD is a mental health issues that centres on obsessional control offensive?

I am honestly at a loss as to why that is in any sense either factually incorrect or offensive.

Similarly for anorexia. It is a mental health problem and it is centred on obsessive control. What is offensive about that?

I haven't suggested in any sense that people who find they must have obsessive control over their families to the point of killing them might be suffering from either of these diseases.

I am simply asserting that obsessive control to the point of murder is a mental health problem. So lets try and treat people who suffer from this so that they don't actually kill anyone.

wanna you don't have to be psychic, as 100s of posters have pointed out there are almost always predictors in the form of DV before murder occurs.

Graphista I agree. The CJ system in this country is shocking. It isn't fit for purpose particularly in this subject (because surprise, surprise, it is patriarchal). Same goes for the media.
Oh yes, I reported that thread. It was utterly disgusting.

Because just by posting about them you on this thread that's indicative of linking them to such depraved and cruel behaviour.

Plus

"a man who felt so obsessively about controlling his family that he would rather kill them then lose them?"

In the SAME post - so lose the wide eyed faux innocence.

Particularly as many sufferers of OCD and eating disorders have been victims of men like this.

"The CJ system in this country is shocking. It isn't fit for purpose particularly in this subject (because surprise, surprise, it is patriarchal)"

The woefully low sentencing for paedophiles, rapists and murderers is appalling.

I knew the man who did this:

www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/man-killed-himself-after-stabbing-125055/

No one understands why it happened but I was incredibly sad that he didn't seek help. It's just devastating as we shall never know if we could have made a difference. Heartbreaking.

Neverender but again - very little said about or sympathy for the true victim - his wife!

From that article Things got out of control and he got a large kitchen knife and stabbed her numerous times.. Things didn't get out of control, a violent man lost control, probably after 'losing' control of his family. If you Google men who've killed their families the reports are full of similar language, one such man was even described as a victim, then there's all the friends and family comments 'he was a gentle man, he loved his kids, respected member of the community, etc' . The reporting on these cases has a lot to answer for.

The real problem, as already mentioned, is societies attitude to women in general. Even in this case, lots of sympathy for the children, not so much for their mother.