What kind of person jumps off a cliff with two children? **MNHQ warning: upsetting content**

[Leafyhouse]

I've been really shaken by that story about the woman stabbed at home, and the father found at the bottom of the cliff with 2 dead children, 10 and 7.

Their home is about 400 yards away from me. I also have 2 DS's, aged 8 and 10. It's just made me sick to the core. Police and forensic officers all over this lovely house, in a really nice area - and for what? Why would someone do that? Have your own problems, but why take the children?

Just reeling at the moment, am going to hug my kids extra tight tonight. This one's just so very close to home.

*Probably a fucking deranged and evil murderous abusive bastard like most of the men who murder their wives and children are.

Fuck him. I’ll save my sympathy for the wife and children.*

Yep.

Sick of seeing mental health attached to anything people don't understand or trying to excuse evil actions.

It's insulting to people with genuine mental health issues and also absolute bollocks. How far we still have to go when such excuses are made for men who murder their entire families. Poor man?! Is that a joke?

Woo, so have I. I disagree with you respectfully. It's also too simplistic to say that if childhood trauma were a factor, then women would act the same way. Men and women are different biologically and in many ways, socially.

You see, I knew my comments would be misconstrued. It's been taken that I sympathise with murderers and don't believe that women should be supported through DV. Even though I was clear in my post.

Yes, enthusiasm, entirely agree with that and it’s also precisely what the law says. But we can’t be 100% sure what happened here yet. And even if this man was 100% just a nasty bastard, I think people insisting mental health is never a factor in doing things which aren’t their fault is inaccurate and a bit stigmatising.

InSisu has a point as I've certainly read that growing up in a DV household can normalise the behaviour and lead to an increased risk of children perpetuating the cycle. I think that's something that worked on these days and not sure how great a risk it is anyway.

Clearly not all children who do go on to commit DV my DGF who grew up with a violent alcoholic certainly didn’t and made a huge success of his life.

Dsis ex grew up in a nice family with no DV.

lostinsnow, not all mental illness is the same though is it?
I never said it was.

It reads like you’re excusing DV by insisting there always a reason outside the perpetrators control.

Posting something I saw on another thread

Male violence is the greatest problem in the world.

Those poor poor kids. I'm assuming they may well have known / seen what he did to their mum.

So incredibly upsetting.

If I misread your post then I apologise but you focused on child abuse and MH issues as a key to toxic masculinity. Although I think they do have an impact, I think the much larger one is the patriarchal society that we inhabit. And I am tired of being told we need to understand men better. I think it feeds into the culture of domestic abuse that says if only the woman had tried harder then she wouldn't have angered him. There is a time to say 'no more'.
Society currently excuses male violence by framing incidents like this as somehow more acceptable than a man killing strangers.
Treat DV and EA with the seriousness that they deserve and you would enable more women to flee and would put men who were convicted into an environment where they can access counselling and medical support if that's what they need but crucially during that time they wouldn't be able to inflict more damage on innocent women and children.

My mum has suffere from mental illness on and off her whole life. She’s only ever tried to kill herself - no one else.
My friend’s dad was mentally ill. He killed himself but did not hurt his family.
I think that when these men kill their family, then themselves they are killing themselves partly because they don’t want to face up to the consequences of their actions.

Not unwell. A cold blooded murderer.

Woo, I did say that the broader discussion would have to include MH and child abuse. I did not say, and don't believe they are the key. I highlighted these two topics to show my opinion that they are almost taboo to talk about in this context. And it would seem I'm right.
Toxic masculinity/the patriarchy is what I was referring to. We are as women oppressed. How do we go forward as a society to tackle this if we can't even have open discussions?
I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph.

it’s like you’re excusing DV by insisting there always a reason outside the perpetrators control.

No I’m not. As I said several times, there are many, many types of MH problems where the sufferer is entirely in control of their actions and completely knows right from wrong. Things like depression, personality disorders. In those cases MH is no excuse and they are 100% guilty as much as anyone without MH issues. And as people have pointed out, most murderers would fit into this category as you would never describe someone who committed a murder as in a ‘normal’ state of mind. They deserve no sympathy and their MH is no excuse. They knew what they did was wrong.

But there are some people who have a complete psychotic break from reality and are so terrified by delusions that they lash out in what they believe is defence because their perception of reality is so wrong. Like the man who killed Jonathan Zito or Matthew Daley who killed his Grandfather and was an undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenic.

Yes, people are right to say that many people with MH problems are still absolutely guilty and wrong for what they did. But that doesn’t apply to all circumstances. And to extrapolate from someone having OCD or depression being responsible for and understanding their actions that someone in the grip of psychosis is too is wrong.

Quite a few years ago now, a womans ex, took the child for the day at weekend as he usually did, just before he was due to take the child back home he rang the mother and said she would never see her again, she rang the police, and told them what he had threatened, but it was too late,he jumped off a high bridge with the little girl, and she was heard to be screaming no daddy no, , this was for spite, poor child, poor mother, dont think anyone would ever get over that

Why are so many people expressing sympathy for this "poor, desperate, unwell man" who "probably thought he was doing the best for his family". You're all deluded!!!!! . He is nothing but a cold blooded, murdering, narcassistic, controlling, violent fuck and I hope he burns in hell. Why all the misplaced sympathy for this demon? Where is the sympathy for his victims, innocent children!

He's a murdering nasty fucker. Poor woman and children

Men who commit the ultimate domestic violence are usually far too narcissistic to take their own lives. Not so. I believe they do it [kill themselves] because they don't want to face justice. Cowards that they are.

Why are we supposed to assume that this man had a psychotic break and was delusional and we need to feel sorry for him

Rather than the far more likely explanation that he was a nasty bastard who carried out the ultimate act of domestic violence?

Exactly SnibbleAgain. The ultimate act of domestic violence and the ultimate act of revenge. Revenge on whom I don't know, but it is the ultimate "fuck you" to society; , i'll kill you, I'll kill the children then I'll kill myself so there is no justice, no answers for those left behind and I dont have to answer to anyone. That isnt mental illness, that is pure calculated evil.

I hate the way people try and see men like this as victims. It's the wife and children who are the victims, the man is the abuser. And he sees the wife and children as belonging to them. It's totally sick.

I wonder if the papers will do the usual thing of describing this as a "family tragedy" and dredge up lots of people to say how great he was, and barely mention his wife and kids except to say they died as part of the tragedy.

OR whether things are changing in this regard - I really hope so.

Morphene as a long term sufferer of OCD I found your post at 0958 EXTREMELY hurtful and offensive. OCD is largely about the (irrational) fear of causing harm to others or yourself. PLEASE don't comment again on something you clearly know not nearly enough about.

InSisu and you seem determined to be even more offensive. I'm also a survivor of childhood abuse inc sexual, at the hands of a man just like this. Many perpetrators of DV and child abuse CLAIM to also have been victims. It's now being recognised that's not always true. Violent criminals LIE shocker!

I disagree you've been "misunderstood" you just don't like that your comments have been criticised.

As several others have pointed out these men RATIONALLY decide NOT to attempt to control anyone in a position to fight back. Hell they don't even START the DV by immediately being extremely controlling and violent, they train and wear down their victims initially very subtly over many years. It's premeditated and logical. The very antithesis of mental illness.

I'm so sick of seeing the mentally ill demonised.

I don’t think anybody has assumed he was psychotic. But there were a lot of posts saying ‘well my next door neighbours babysitters cousin has depression and she’s never killed anybody therefore MH problems are never a mitigating factor’. But sometimes they are. I have no idea what the mental health of the man in this case was and I imagine few people outside the police do either.

@Graphista Like you DSis and I were SA victims of a man like that as well, our abusive father, though the crazy thing is we didn't understand that. It started from when we were very little so it was all we knew. He used to say a woman's adultery was worse than a man's adultery and accuse my DM of being unfaithful. I can now see how controlling he was.

There are so many people who don't want to see it, it makes it that much harder for victims to speak out.

Hope you're doing ok, it's such a tough thing to get through, isn't it? I have complex PTSD and probable OCD like you describe.

"I have no idea what the mental health of the man in this case was and I imagine few people outside the police do either."

Well no he's killed the people who might have been able to shed some light on that.

I don’t think anybody has assumed he was psychotic. But there were a lot of posts saying ‘well my next door neighbours babysitters cousin has depression and she’s never killed anybody therefore MH problems are never a mitigating factor’. But sometimes they are. I have no idea what the mental health of the man in this case was and I imagine few people outside the police do either.

But the first responses to this were that it was a MH issue.

Someone who desperately unwell.

Someone who is incredibly unwell.

I can only assume anyone who would do anything like that is severely unwell.

A very mentally ill person.

As others have said, someone who is so ill they cannot comprehend reason

Someone desperate.

A person who is desperately mentally ill and genuinely believes that they are doing the best thing for their children by "ending their pain". I'm sure no one in their right mind would do this but unfortunately not everyone is in their right mind.

This attitude - that a violent man is a mentally ill man - needs to be challenged and I hope posters who did post that - perhaps as a kind of knee jerk reaction to the terribleness of this case - will think some more about it.

Not sure the police would know either TBH.

Who are they going to ask?

Most of the time these men turn out to be nasty abusive bastards and no more complcated than that.