To say that the English system of school allocations seems bonkers?

[Edinburghgirlie]

I have been reading with interest the threads about school placements and potential appeals and find it bonkers. Here in Scotland you live in a catchment area and you automatically get a space at that school...no question. If you want to go to another school then you put in a placing request and if they have spaces unfillled by catchment children then they consider siblings already there and proximity to the school.
It’s very clear cut here, although it does lead to house prices being pushed up if they are in the catchment of a ‘desirable’ school. I really don’t envy people down south not knowing which school they will get in to.
AIBU in thinking the English system seems bonkers?

Thanks for the data, dragon.

It is very probable that of the 4% who didn't get any of their choices, many weren't realistic and didn't actually put all their closest / most likely schools on their list - so the percentage who applied to their 3/4/5/6 [depending on area] closest / most likely schools but didn't get any of them is likely to be really very small, probably under 1%.

It is very probable that of the 4% who didn't get any of their choices, many weren't realistic and didn't actually put all their closest / most likely schools on their list - so the percentage who applied to their 3/4/5/6 [depending on area] closest / most likely schools but didn't get any of them is likely to be really very small, probably under 1%.

Exactly my thoughts....

Was about to say the same as cantkeepawayforever, in my part of England you still have to live in the area for siblings to get priority. You cant just move away.

The primary school I went to and the primary my daughters went to all have two classes for each year group. So two p1’s, two p2’s etc.

We seem to do allocation to secondary school differently too. Where we live, which is a medium sized city we have 4 secondary schools and whatever primary school you are in will determine which secondary you go to. As each primary feeds into a certain secondary school again depending on catchment. You can still do a placing request to a different secondary school which your primary doesn’t filter into, you aren’t guaranteed a place but you might get in if there is space. I know people who have done this and got in.

We have friends in London and their dd went to a secondary school across the other side of London. She had to travel an hour every day to her school, I can’t imagine having to send my child so far to school when there are schools nearby.

catchment siblings sounds very fair :)

Linnet,

What happens if e.g. a P1 child lives in catchment for primary school A, and starts there. The family then moves, so they are in what would normally be the catchment for primary school B, which feeds into a different secondary.

Meanwhile another child moves from elsewhere into the country, but can't get into primary school A, because it is full.

Does the first child still get to go to the secondary that A is the feeder school to, even though the second child lives in the area usually served by that secondary?

In England at least, feeder school systems are really problematic, because parents fight to get child into the feeder school for a desirable secondary ... then move away into cheaper houses elsewhere, safe in the knowledge that they are blocking access to the desirable secondary for others who now live closer to the desirable secondary than they do...

They are used for faith schools (especially Catholic ones), IME, but not for normal comprehensives in my county at least.

91% of children were offered their first choice school nationally last year.

0.5% of children (3,000) did not get offered any of the schools they had put on their forms.

This is the vast majority of children.

In the same way that the 7% of children attending private school take a much larger share of voice on the education boards on MN, the 9% of those not allocated their first choice and more challenging for them the 0.5% of children who don't get offered one of their choices get a lot more air time than the 99.5% who did get one of their choices.

*cantkeepawayforever
Addresses come into play for secondary so if a child has a place at catchment primary and moves away then they wouldn’t automatically get a space at the secondary. They would have to put in a placing request. That’s how it works in Edinburgh anyway!

Doesn’t the feeder school system ease the passage into secondary school by making it likely that new arrivals will see familiar faces?

Boston Someone will end up with a logistical nightmare and sibling preference is one way of reducing it: and it also means that new pupils are more likely to have the moral support that an older sibling can give.

As the father of an only I have no dog in this race!

What is the system for 'placing request', who decides if you get it, is it independent, can you appeal it, can you do as many as you want to several schools, can you go on a waiting list to change if a place comes up. Are you allowed to home school while you wait for a good school place to come up? Are you allowed to rent, get place and move...

My child is a "looked after" child in foster care . She hasn't got her first choice of school either ... Which it used to be that children in foster care got first priority ! The alternative she's been given isn't great apparently ! I think her Social Worker is going to have to fight it .

It's a ridiculous system !!!

Andrew, yes, but if feeder schools are highly over-subscribed it freezes out e.g. children who move into the area after the start of primary.

Equally, it can be very arbitrary, especially at the borders of catchment areas: my DC's primary sits on the road which is the border between two 'priority admissions areas', and is about 100 metres from the edge of a third. its pupils go off to the various different secondaries depending on where their house is relative to the school.

If it was 'a feeder school' to one of those secondaries, there would be an anomaly in which children attending that school from the opposite side to the feeder secondary could live MUCH further from the secondary at which they had priority than many others who might be in 'non-feeder' schools, or rather, feeders to the other secondaries.

I’m English but living in Edinburgh. Pros of the Scottish system (in my opinion) are;
Being able to easily defer school entrance for my Feb born dd for a whole year so she started last August at 5years and 6 months, being guaranteed a place at the primary 5 minutes away, so she knows all the other kids in the street. Cons are 96 (!) kids in P1 so they have 4 nominal classes, which leads to my second con which is the ‘onerey’ system that most P1 classes introduced this year whereby kids rotate through various stations throughout the day. It’s based on a Scandinavian system but was rushed out here and the kids HATE it.

cantkeepawayforever They would do a placing request for the secondary that primary A would feed into.

The secondary schools have a much bigger capacity as they have kids feeding in from a number of primaries. My daughters secondary school has just over 600 secondary pupils but there are only 4 schools that feed into it although placing requests can be made. Another school across town has over 1400 pupils but there are 13 schools that feed into that one as schools from the surrounding villages come into the city.

If you move into the area and your catchment school is full the council will place you in the nearest school with a place. It’s possible that this school may feed into the same secondary as the one you didn’t get into, if not you’d do a placing request.

walkingdeadfangirl
if you would prefer a school other than your catchment, you can do a placing request. The criteria here is sibling then proximity to school. If there are too many siblings applying then it is sibling AND proximity. I’m not sure how many placing requests you can make. There is an appeals process but I don’t know too much about it. After places are allocated you can go on a waiting list if you wee unsuccessful. You can home educate if you wish to. Lastly, you could theoretically rent in a particular catchment and then move.
I’m not an expert but that’s my understanding.

That's not necessarily true I'm in Scotland and have to wait until April to find out if my child gets a place in the primary school ONE STREET AWAY. I can see it from my house but it's oversubscribed due to the reasons PP have suggested, its highly desirable and in the last year over 300 new homes have been built in the streets surrounding it therefore all these families are also in the catchment! While she will of course get a place in another school in our area its a stressful wait to find out as my childcare currently relies on her getting into the one next to us (to stay with current childminder) and after school care won't put her on the list until I can confirm which school she's going to. Whatever happens there will be some people in the catchment for this school who are going to be disappointed.

Mum, I tthoguth it was the law that LAC and ex-LAC children MUST be at the top of the over-subscription criteria to any school (selective schools aside, and even there, it is usual for LAC / ex-LAC who attain a certain level to go straight to the top of the list), excepting only those with EHCPs naming the school.

t seems unlikely that the school can have that number of children with EHCPs naming the school - definitely shiout out for the admissions people on here (admission iggytape prh47bridge PanelChair), as they can give you advice.

mumgointhroughtorture Is that in England? because LAC do legally get priority.

Mmmmmmmm - no choices here.
Ok ok I didn’t put catchment school (it was far away so if I had to drive I may as well go for a school I liked)

Put closest school down (is 250 yds close enough?). Never got it (previous year & subsequent years we would have a place. Didn’t realise so many siblings lived so far away.

Put down 2 other schools which were common schools for kids from our estate to go to.

Didn’t even get catchment school - oops.

Actually it has worked out well and the school struggles to shake of its bad rep - but is actually very good. So we benefit from smaller class sizes.

And distance is same as catchment school.

But it would have been nice for children to go to local school.

Scottish system is better - of course it is, it’s Scottish 😜

Even the age kids go to school is better.

And don’t even get me started on buying a house in England 😂

user1488397844
Where are you? I was under the impression that children in catchment were given a place. Were there no boundary changes to take account of the new houses? That seems stupid to build houses and not change the catchments or else extend the school or build a new school.

So say there’s a P2 class of 30, and then 35 P1s. An additional 5 kids isn’t enough to fund a whole extra teacher and there isn’t space spare to put them with the P2s as that’s already full.

I've worked in Scottish Primaries who had that same situation. The extra 5 is actually an extra 10 as P1 classes don't take more than 25.
They ended up employing an extra teacher and having two P1 classes of 18 and 17.

you can do a placing request. The criteria here is sibling then proximity to school So we are back to the selection by wealth criteria. If you are in catchment for a 'badly performing' school the only realistic option is to cross your fingers a good school nearby is under-subscribed or you buy a house closer to a good school. Selection by wealth.

walkingdeadfangirl
That is the case. The system is by no means perfect but at least you know you have a guaranteed local school. Some of the posters I have seen on this site talk of being offered schools many miles away.

In my county it is:

1. Statement of educational needs and looked after children
2. Catchment area
3. Siblings
4. Geographical

The school where I teach has 2 children allocated on number 1, 20 on number 2, 20 on number 3 and 20 on number 4. The furthest distance was 0.6 miles.
My child's own school has a PAN of 50. Never, ever been anywhere near that number. Usually admit anywhere between 25 and 40. In my child's year group there are 33 children - 4 live outside the catchment area. Had these children attended their own catchment area school, my child's year group wouldn't have to be split due to the infant class size rule (30). Not that I mind of course!

But one year when my own school's numbers were low (we are a 420 school but numbers went as low as 256 one year due to inaction by the HT at the time with poor behaviour) we found out that EIGHTY children who were in our catchment area sought places at another local school that was seen to be desirable.

How things have changed!

Our school is now the most sought after in the county (121 applications for 60 places one year!) BUT there were 8 families who stupidly only put School A down as their ONLY choice rather than 3 schools. They were in our catchment ares (School B). They were under the false impression that if only one school was written on the application, the LEA would automatically give a school place to their child at that school.

Big mistake!

What happened was this: School A was full. The 8 parents had not put school B down as a choice and though in the catchment area, their places were given to those who fulfilled the sibling and geographical element of school place allocation. So their children were offered school places for the ONLY school that had places - school C; the 'sink' school. The 8 parents were furious, appealed, tried to get into school B NOW claiming it was their catchment area but the council cannot take school places away just because some plonker read the information wrong when advised how to make their school allocation choice and also for those unfortunate to move into an area after school allocations have been given. One or two apparently enrolled at school C but going on every school waiting list in the town whereas others chose to 'home-school' until a place was sought.
They'd have a long time; one family years ago who were unhappy with our school (didn't blame them, I would be too as a parent) wanted their child into school A. They ended up home-schooling until a place came up in YEAR 3!

Moral of the tale: Read your LEA'S information about school allocations and choices VERY carefully. DO NOT disregard your catchment area school whatsoever on your choice form just because you are 100% certain you want the 'prestige' school 5 miles away. Schools CAN change in an instant in terms of loyalty, popularity and OFSTED ratings. Though school A was the choice of many, school D was actually the ultimate favourite 10 years ago. In the past 6 years, they have struggled to be graded above RI, had a change of SLT three times and have only just appointed a permanent HT after the last one went long term sick and left 6 years ago. Now parents flock to us!

Personally I prefer choice. Why should any child attend their local school simply because it's nearer? I don't want my child being limited to mediocre teaching just because it's my catchment school. Every parent should have the right to choose a school that FITS their child and gives their child what they need and want.

Choice all the way.

I'm east renfrewshire so it's a high demand area. The issue is there is another school in our catchment, its just under 2miles away so she will go there in the event we don't get into the one beside us. In the grand scheme of things it's not a huge issue it's more the knock on effect of the childcare etc and you are in limbo until the letters come out! However, not long to go!