To say that the English system of school allocations seems bonkers?

[Edinburghgirlie]

I have been reading with interest the threads about school placements and potential appeals and find it bonkers. Here in Scotland you live in a catchment area and you automatically get a space at that school...no question. If you want to go to another school then you put in a placing request and if they have spaces unfillled by catchment children then they consider siblings already there and proximity to the school.
It’s very clear cut here, although it does lead to house prices being pushed up if they are in the catchment of a ‘desirable’ school. I really don’t envy people down south not knowing which school they will get in to.
AIBU in thinking the English system seems bonkers?

Actually the “good” school next door would be entirely unsuitable for my children’s needs, I’ve placed them in a school in a very mixed area but where there’s good understanding of the type of support they will need. One of those situations where a “good” school isn’t the best option in real life.

The Scottish system allows me to make that decision for my kids confident that they’ll get a place at the most appropriate school for their needs. That’s not what I hear on here at all from folk south of the border.

What happens in Scotland if one year there are eighty children living in the catchment area rather than the typical thirty. Does the school expand or what happens?

In the English system because the school places are fixed at thirty then only the closest thirty get in and the other fifty children have to go to another school.

Part of the problem with school places have been that the planners haven't caught up with actually how people live. Eg the planning assumption was that only houses would have school age children but now, partly due to rise in house prices, people live in flats with multiple children.

Jelly, but the situation you describe absolutely requires excess capacity in ALL schools. That just isn't available in most built-up areas down South.

Where I live, 1 single Reception place was unallocated on primary admissions day. Yes, that is brilliant matching of supply and demand, and VERY efficient use of resources, but it CAN'T coexist with a guarantee that everyone gets their catchment school and that everyone can make a placing request to a school of their choosing. there HAS to be quite complex choosing and modeling for it to work.

(I should have said, this is in large town with c. 15-20 primary schools, most 2 form entry at least)

I've lived in both England and Scotland and both systems have pluses and minuses. Although in both you still end up with the problem that the better schools tend to be in the richer neighbourhoods.
But whoever said no external exams until 4th year was a good thing, I have to disagree.. Avoiding them at primary level is great, but kids are disadvantaged by having zero test taking practice until the ones that really count. (And don't get me started on the dumbing down of the new national exams..)

At least the Scottish system guarantees every child a school place they can reasonably get to in the morning. It's frankly terrifying to hear of London boroughs with fewer places than children to place, often by dozens.

Every system has its downsides; the only difference is who is disadvantaged and how.

The shortage of school places in some areas does not help I expect.

There would probably be just as much of an outcry if there was the Scottish allocation system used in England, as it would be seen as restricting choice. Especially if the local school was not seen as very good, or worsening compared with alternatives.

Any allocation system I think should give preference to siblings for a number of reasons, not just the transport one.

The one thing I would note about the choices available in most areas are that there are some forms of choice seldom available- some forms of specialist schools (sporting, musical, technology for example), or any variation/choice in the times of the school day. For some families given the employment of one or more parents, a school day starting at 8 and ending earlier would be beneficial, for others a later start than that currently offered.

Not everywhere in Scotland. I have friends in Dunfermline who haven't been able to get a place in their catchment school because there's too many houses getting built/not enough school places.

There is, as a previous poster said, the system relies on maintaining slightly excess capacity against population modelling - you’ll see many schools where capacity is higher than their actual school roll.

Our area is currently reforming catchment areas because of a population shift caused by house building - the public consultation will be finished in time for the LA to make decisions for enrolment next year and will even up class sizes.

An extra 70 kids don’t appear from nowhere - there are close links with health and nurseries so good predictions can be made about P1 admissions. Many schools will have 2 x P1 classes or a composite P1/2 class to build capacity. I’d be surprised if a school only found out at enrolment time that they suddenly had 70 new P1s in their catchment.

The issue is that after cared for then catchment in one school there were only 3 places left . Longest distance they took a child from was 5 houses away from the school.
Catchment areas in some cases are measured in feet not miles

Sorry should have read cared for then sibling

I’d be surprised if a school only found out at enrolment time that they suddenly had 70 new P1s in their catchment.

That's true. On the nursery enrolment forms we have to fill in an "intended primary school" section. You still need to enrol in your preferred primary school at the right time anyway, and attending an attached nursery makes no difference to your likelihood of getting into the school (if you're in an area where demand outweighs spaces).

@fuckoffsnow we're in the process of a consultation about catchment areas just now - doesn't affect me as DD is in 4th year & goes to the school across the road so I haven't paid much attention when we get letters about it but I assume it's due to the continual increase in houses being built

Some of the stories here about parents not getting kids into school 5 minutes away because it’s full just wouldn’t happen here. If it was the catchment school you’d get a place.

The population density doesn't allow this to happen in many places. The schools only have a limited amount of physical space (you can't magic up extra ground on which to build new classrooms).

FWIW - there are (theoretical) catchment areas here. I live in a Victorian house less than 10 min walk from the town centre on the Northern side of the town. It's a large town (94,000 people).

Despite this, my catchment school isn't in the town I live in - it's in a village to the West of the town. It's just a shade under the distance that would require the council to provide transport (by a few hundred yards). I don't know anyone who lives in my street and who sends their kids to this school. The logistics just don't work.

It’s not bonkers, it just places the option for placing at an earlier stage in tne process.

The vast majority of people in England get their local school and are content.These are not the people we hear from on MN.

The angst and high MN Threadcount is often due to people not wanting their ‘catchment’ school, I.e the school they would get under the Scottish system. And that is often because their is a further away, or faith, or selective school that they would prefer because it is, or is perceived to be better. Even when the local school is perfectly Ok.

And in even in London, the majority in boroughs round me get a first or second choice, even though with 6 preferences, people can afford a few ‘long shots ‘ and still be sure of a good / OK local comp.

And school standards are now dropping in Scotland: that’s where you need to focus.

Some LAs in Scotland use data from the NHS to forecast anticipated future school rolls. Basically, NHS provide information about pre-school children registered to GP practice, which is then mapped by postcode to the catchment school. It’s not an exact science bur gives an idea of what schools can expect for P1 intake.

"and if you can’t move you’re stuck with a crap school." THAT is the problem there shouldn't BE really crap schools - but there is and usually in the most deprived areas.

"It also depends if you favour a policy of parental choice or state control. Do you really want to have no say in your own child’s school place?" The poor parents STILL don't have a choice. Plus if all schools received equal investment support and resources there'd be little difference between the schools.

No academies or grammar schools in Scotland.

Dd has been to schools in England and Scotland. In my personal experience for the most part scots schools were better especially primary. Not saying that's generally true just my experience.

Witchend - all the scottish schools of my exoerience in deprived areas and actually by scots that have never lived outside of scotland not considered that great - way better than the truly appalling English schools I have experience of.

"I have many friends and family up in Scotland who are parents and teachers and most of them would not agree with the OP." Have they actual experience of non scots schools?

The English system isn't that hard. When you hear of people getting none of their choices or a school 10 miles away is because they put totally unrealistic choices to start off with.
Put your preferred (reasonable) choice first and the next best realistic one second and you'll get one of them 99% of the time. People choosing bonkers options are the reason people don't get great options. If you pick a fantastic school 7 miles away what makes you think everyone else within that radius won't too

I've been in schools in Scotland and England too (and Europe)

If the primary I worked in accommodated all children who applied to it, either at the beginning or as in-year applicants, we could easily have 150 pupils in each year group (it was originally build as 2-form entry, ie 60 per year group). There is simply not enough physical capacity to build 2-3x more classrooms per year than we have at the moment.

The catchment area for that school would obviously be very different to where it is at the moment. For example the school my kids went too for primary was in an area with lots of high rise flats so it's catchment area (in terms of number of streets) was relatively small to account for a lot of children.

What happens in Scotland if one year there are eighty children living in the catchment area rather than the typical thirty. Does the school expand or what happens?

That happens, too!

A few years ago, where I live, the number of children reaching school age was more than 60 greater than the number of places available. Rather than shoehorn 12-15 kids into each school, the LEA decided to add 2 extra forms of entry into the only school in town that had space to accommodate temporary classrooms. As it was right on the eastern edge of town, they then had to fund home-school transport for a lot of them as the school was more than 2 miles away.

Three years later, that school was massively oversubscribed because a lot of those extra children had siblings who reached school age. The LEA then had to fund transport for children living very near the school but who couldn't get a place there because of all the siblings from the first lot.

The first lot of those children must be coming up for the move to secondary now. I wouldn't be surprised if a fair few have to be bussed to a secondary 5-6 miles away.

If there are more children registered at a Scottish school than there are places in terms of class space/staffing resources, then the local authority HAS to stump up the cash to make a new class. This happened to us when we moved into a catchment where the class was at capacity already.

Also, our town has one school but it now has 5 or 6 classes in each year. The building keeps on being expanded and is now over 2 campuses.

That's exactly what it is Whiskey. The newest primary just had an extension built, and is at capacity again. The new houses that are planned near it are in catchment for a school in another area. There's a slight snob issue too of some people thinking that the "main" primary being seen as being better because it doesn't have any social housing in catchment like the others do. Crazy.

Also in big areas you have big schools. My nieces go to a relatively newly built school (I think it's about 12 years old) and because of the number of houses built in the area it's double the capacity of the old school. There was one bumper year where there was 4 P1 classes. Normally there's 2 per year, but this bigger year group was anticipated and easily coped with.

Exactly jellycatspyjamas my DC have all gone to the local primary where there are 2/ 2.5 classes for each year. There is no 45+ in any class, in fact, in P1-3 the maximum is 25.
It is NOT universally true that the better schools are in the better areas at all. My DC school has a very mixed catchment but is excellent, far superior in many ways to the one my friend works in in a very well off area.
I am a parent and teacher in the Scottish system and totally agree with the OP, contrary to a PP. I would not want to be a friend of mine in the SE with 2 kids in different primary schools, both miles from her home and she doesn't drive! Nightmare.
On the note of exams - pupils here DO have exams before 4th year, merely a combination of formative and summative: Less formal but by no means less rigorous. Unpublished but that, quite rightly, means parents can judge a school by far more than league tables- education cannot be distilled into a statistic.
However, I do agree with a PP on the dumbing down of the National exams. Highers remain a good standard but that's it!