To say that the English system of school allocations seems bonkers?

[Edinburghgirlie]

I have been reading with interest the threads about school placements and potential appeals and find it bonkers. Here in Scotland you live in a catchment area and you automatically get a space at that school...no question. If you want to go to another school then you put in a placing request and if they have spaces unfillled by catchment children then they consider siblings already there and proximity to the school.
It’s very clear cut here, although it does lead to house prices being pushed up if they are in the catchment of a ‘desirable’ school. I really don’t envy people down south not knowing which school they will get in to.
AIBU in thinking the English system seems bonkers?

If I was to move to Scotland how would I know which school was best?

You would find out the schools in the LA you were moving to & look up their reports (granted the website isn't the easiest to navigate & some reports are missing) but the best way is to visit the schools to see what you think, speak to the learning support teacher if your child requires additional support about provisions required & try to speak to parents whilst you're there. Arrange an appointment with the education officer for your chosen area as they will be able to give you in-depth information on the schools they cover.

If I was moving to England how would I know which school was best - bearing in mind that I wouldn't have a clue which schools I could apply to so I'd be researching a lot of schools. Would the LA education department/schools have the time or inclination to go through the process of visiting & discussing the schools & the provisions for my children? Because I have a few friends/family who can't get appointments to discuss their children's requirements when the child needs what we call additional support for learning which I think but I could be wrong is your SENCO equivalent.

Around here the option list when they have more kids with spaces has tended to be:

1. composite class
2. repurpose some other space as a classroom (library, GP room, offices, lunch halls, corridors...)
3. team teaching (some of the older schools have very large classrooms)
4. expand in some way - extensions in the playground, annexe buildings, etc etc
5. reconsider catchment boundaries (but this is a long term thing involving a lot of consultation)

They normally know well in advance that the future years are going to be bigger than expected so they start the planning upfront.

They don't tend to do combined bulge years because it then creates problems further on with siblings.

But how are schools supposed to cope if the number of children in their catchment in any given year is more than they can accommodate?

Scotland's population is much more stable than England's, and much less dense. In recent years things are starting to get squashed with the rise of new build estates.

Most schools have enough extra room (general purpose room, library, ICT suite) for bulges to go un-noticed for the first few years.

Are there lots of teachers waiting for jobs in Scotland? We have a serious recruitment problem in some areas in England, so it isn't as easy as just putting on an extra class. There has to be someone who wants the job, too!

No. For the past year/eighteen months there has been a growing recruitment crisis.

@purplephotoframe
'Many people like to congratulate themselves for sending their child to their catchment school, but often forget that all the houses in their catchment are 200k +, which is totally out of reach for many families'

so in the 'cheaper than 200k house areas' where do the kids go to school? there must be a catchment school for the cheaper housing areas surely?

general purpose room, library, ICT suite

Wow. Just wow. I haven't been in a primary with ANY of those for years.... and you've missed out the store-room, old Reception area / offices, old canteen (now no hot food on site) and medical room.

Of course there are, boston!

I was trying to make the point that a comprehensive school isn't all that comprehensive if it only draws from one section of society.

How does the staffing work in Scotland then if every year there might be a different number of classes. Lots and lots of supply teachers on short term contracts?

In Scotland teachers are often contracted to their local authority, not the individual school. Makes it easier to match staff up with schools when numbers change.

In my LA teachers contracts are with the LA not an individual school so a teacher on a permanent contract could be in a school one year then be moved to a different school the following year if the required number of teachers change due to classes.

Probationers are used to fill the gaps too.

I disagree that every child is guaranteed a place at their catchment school in Scotland.

I didn’t know right up until before school started for P1 that my child was getting a place in our catchment school, despite being able to see it from our house! It was more stressful to be told that our children may well end up in different schools. We were lucky in the end but I know others who were not so fortunate. I also am already worrying about what will happen to their high school place as by the time these kids are high school ages the high school which is already falling apart will need expanded and there are no immediate plans to do that.

Purple photo frame, where I live a catchment area covers a fairly wide area. There will be housing of various values included in that area. The catchment our local school is in has properties ranging from social housing right up to houses worth over £350,000.

Schools aren't controlled by LEAs anymore.
Academies can make their own admissions criteria so long as it doesn't involve academic selection.
Where I live, I am in catchment for my local comp. I am also in the catchment for 3 other schools from a neighbouring county. They have extended their catchments into an area that traditionally was a completely different LEA. It's crazy.
As well as catchment, they have feeder primaries which are higher up than catchment.
Feeder primaries are split into higher and lower priority.
It's virtually impossible to know whether your child has a chance of getting in or not.
Academies are a disaster in so many ways. Just chaos.

I’m in Scotland and my child started school this year. There are over 120 children in her year which means five primary 1 classes. It is far too busy.

The only way you can get what you want for your children is to pay. Beg, borrow or - whatever- to do it. When I was working we had to pay for childcare and one option we used was a pre prep so we realised that private education was no more than nursery fees but with a Rolls Royce aspect to it. Instead of moving our children to free state schools when they were five we gritted our teeth and carried on paying.

No holidays. No new anything. No fancy cars, meals out, clothes, whatever.

No regrets.

Teacher22 - or you could have moved house to beside an outstanding school and saved your money. I bet you DC would have preferred the cash and outstanding school rather than overworked parents and a private education.

How does the staffing work in Scotland then if every year there might be a different number of classes. Lots and lots of supply teachers on short term contracts?

It is very rare for classes to change dramatically year to year. Most schools have a fairly stable roll and therefore know that they usually need x teachers.

Many people like to congratulate themselves for sending their child to their catchment school, but often forget that all the houses in their catchment are 200k +, which is totally out of reach for many families

It’s not about congratulations. It’s about parents and kids being happy with their education. Not everything is about money you know.

And I only know of one secondary school on Scotland where every house in the catchment area is over 200k. Which ones do you mean ?

Catchment doesn't necessarily increase adjacent house prices.

Not where I live.

3 secondary schools and 1 private school in this town.

3 secondaries all adjacent to council estates.

The sink estate is adjacent to what is currently considered the best secondary (because it has Outstanding Ofsted grade) yet house prices all around are streets and streets of small terraces in an Asian community, and an estate of 50s semi detached. All property prices are typical of their kind of stock.

The houses next to the other 2 secondaries are council or ex council and typically reflective of that price housing stock too.

The private school is also opposite a council estate. Again, typical hosing stock prices.

The most expensive streets in the town are nearest the 'best' secondary, but there's few secondary school age children live there, most likely uni age kids.

Maybe it's different for large towns or cities. Mine is an East Midlands / east Anglian commuter town.

The inspection of the school isn't seen as big a deal publicly here. There might be an article in the local paper when the HMIe deliver their findings but no one seems to bother by it. Parents don't seem to be driven by finding "the best" school, those who don't send their child to catchment do it for other reasons - e.g. nursery friends, siblings, planned move. Catholic schools ask for baptismal certificates, but that's more for planning the sacraments than admission criteria.

Academic attainment in primary schools isn't particularly talked about. But that's the CfE for you.

It's very rare for classes to change so much that staff have to get moved around. Again, if your child goes to a council/school nursery, you have to tell them when you apply what your intended school is. That combined with HV data (who also ask before application stage) make it easier for the council to plan. Teachers are contracted by the council but aren't moved around sites. Bank supply teachers would do that job if required.

Thats not always the case in Scotland as in the larger cities then you are likely in catchment for several schools and have no actual guarantee. Our local school had 70 odd requests and yet 20 have been turned down and sent to other schools...

as lets face it, the schooling system in Scotland with CFE is a disaster at the moment so I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss other systems, no systems are perfect far from it

The amount of data available when choosing a school in England is quite astonishing now.
www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/compare-schools
I've been astounded that the staff cost per pupil is the same at our school in London as it will be in the distant rural part of England we are moving to. There are all sorts of fascinating details on here.

It's not just a case of accommodating one extra class, this has a knock on effect to lunches, interventions, assembly, hall timetabling. In my school I am wedged into an unsuitable space and within the school there is now literally nowhere to break out for small group time etc.

I’ve lived both north and south of the border and generally there seems to be much less angst over school places in Scotland.

However the area I live in had a policy of adding new build houses into the catchment area of the less desirable local schools. All that’s happened in the area I live in, is that everyone puts in a placing request or enrols their child at the RC school as it has a better reputation. No-one send their children to the non denominational catchment school, despite being guaranteed a place, as it’s in a pretty rough council estate.

The town I grew up in is a pretty wealthy commuter town and there’s no angst there over school places. You do need to have fairly deep pockets to afford a house there now. Partly because of the location and partly because of the schools.