Cultural misappropriation and hair

[meandthem]

Am I being unreasonable to object to ethnicity being a factor in respect of what hairstyle choices women are "allowed"? I am pissed of that it now seems acceptable for some styles to be considered cultural misappropriation. What happened to the sisterhood and feminism and women's right to do what the hell we want with our hair!

frequency If you don't get it, just say so; instead of tying yourself in knots.

('cuse the pun)

It's interesting as I was listening to the "Fortunately" podcast today and listened to a few in a row. It's a podcast with Jane Garvey and Fi Glover (two female white, MC, BBC etc. etc.). And they are very good friends and Fi takes the piss out of Jane's "out of control" hair on more than one podcast, which Jane puts down to her Irish ancestors... and then they interview Emily Maitlis who says she has curly hair but has a hairdresser come to her house 3 times a week to blow-dry it straight because it make her feel more "professional" but she does say that Cathy Newman on C4 News does good curly hair but is still professional... and, yes, it really does bring it home that that conversation, in contrast to the women with type 3-4 hair as discussed on this thread, why it would piss you off so much.

I do think that if your aim is to get natural black women's hair accepted as professional in the UK you need it to go mainstream, and given the demographics that does mean appropriation, but yes, that Emily Maitlis conversation really did ram it home how fucking difficult this must be for black women - not because it took a white woman to explain it to me of course and I hope it's clear why the conversation amongst white women about their own hair and "professionalism" - with no reference to black people at all - was the reason it was poignant rather than (don't know if this is a term but assume it is) "whitesplaining".

Re: Kylie Jenner/Kim Kardashian etc- That family has a long history of taking things from Black culture, not giving credit, and acting like they invented it. For example, Kylie said that she started the trend of wearing wigs, which black women around the world have been doing forever. Or they took black hip hop artists and put them on tops with their faces overlayed and sold them for around £100. They gave no money to Tupac or Biggie’s families, and actually had to remove them in order not to be sued.

I don’t think anyone is saying that a girl can’t wear two plaits without appropriating another culture, but more that there is frustration from black women who were told for ages that they couldn’t wear twists, locs, Bantu knots, Fulani braids etc as they were declared ‘unprofessional’ by white people, but now white people are saying “check out this cool new hairstyle I invented- Bo Derrick braids (Fulani braids)”. White people can have ‘fun’ hair, then take it out for a job interview easily. The blackness is a costume they can wear for fun. But black people often do not have this option and often have to mimic Euro hair to be accepted.

Also, there is a difference between a racist, a group of people being perceived as racist, and systematic racism. Every German now can’t be held responsible for Nazi policies. Nor are most Germans racist or anti-Semitic. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t systematic descrimination and anti-semetism in Germany. The system we live in in Europe is skewed towards preferencing White people. For example, it is well documented that POC have a harder time getting job interviews despite the same qualifications, are often not promoted as much as white people.

You may have anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but that is not comprehensive, system-wide studies which clearly show POC are descriminated against in professional settings, housing, education and policing.

White people can have ‘fun’ hair, then take it out for a job interview easily. The blackness is a costume they can wear for fun. But black people often do not have this option and often have to mimic Euro hair to be accepted.

Succintly put, Zoe. It's the unfairness of it.

And totally agree about it being harder for POC to get a job. Applications from those with BAME names need to an apply for an average of 9 jobs to be called for an interview, for white people it's 5 applications.

In my opinion it's reverse racism, "oh yo can't do/say/wear that because your white" it's really odd. I'll await people to come tell me how racism isn't suffered by white people.

ClaryFray

Please read and absorb the post above yours.

No, asking white people to understand the history and context of the situation, and make an informed decision is not racism against white people.

Racism is systematic and a power structure. Those on top are not suffering from ‘racism’ when they are asked to understand the history of hair and how black people have been descrimated against for it. Just as it’s not racist to tell white people to not wear Native American war bonnets.

White people in this country simply are not discriminated against like BAME people are due to the entrenched and systematic racism that is measurable and demonstrable.

Really though, I’m light of all of this, it’s hair, and a discriminated-against class of people have asked for it not to be done. Is it really so hard to just respect those whishes? They’re asking for their culture/race to not be a costume that you can step in and step out of as you please to avoid the downsides.

If the worst discrimination you have ever faced is ‘maybe I shouldn’t wear this hairstyle’ count your lucky stars.

"And totally agree about it being harder for POC to get a job. Applications from those with BAME names need to an apply for an average of 9 jobs to be called for an interview, for white people it's 5 applications."
Has that study been done with an equal number of white people and BAME.
So for example 4 white people and 4 BAME going up for a job at the same time?

@prettylovely the study has been done several times. Usually the exact same cv is sent, one with a ‘white’ sounding name and one with a ‘BAME sounding’ name. Overwhelmingly the white candidates are called over BAME.

Here is a quick study of ‘John vs Mohammed’ www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38751307

Oh its horrible to read about the muslims thinking to give themselves english names for job roles, In regards to muslims I do think they have got alot of stick in recent years, It doesnt seem to happen where I live at least I would hope it wouldnt be tolerated but I do live in a ethnically diverse area. I have seen on social media dimwits posting rubbish and I think they are demeaned and targeted alot by britains first.
Although I did see that this experiment was only done with two people they should have done it with more to get a more fair representation.

Although I did see that this experiment was only done with two people they should have done it with more to get a more fair representation.

Here’s another one with more names (one of which sounds like it is someone with African heritage so it’s not just a reaction to Islam):
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover

That is just one example. This study has been done dozens and dozens of times by universities and published in peer-reviewed publications. The BBC article is just one, easy to read example. The university studies ensure there is proper sampling and representations to pull accurate data. Otherwise it wouldn’t make peer review.

Similar studies have been done with male-sounding vs female-sounding names, as well. It's been proven again and again that interviewers/recruiters favour white men when they have the opportunity to do so.

On the subject of hair, I have noticed quite a lot of Black women wear their hair very short (sometimes dyed bright colours) - having read all the stuff about how time-consuming it is to keep afro hair 'professional' looking, I guess the very short cuts are a way of saving time as well as a fashion choice.

Clary Did someone write that for you? You obviously can't actually read.

I still don't think 3000 applications spread across the country is enough to show that its everywhere not in a population of Britain of over 66million people. With again not knowing how many applicants applied for the jobs overall which is likely to be a high majority of white people as there are more white people in Britain.

prettylovely

There is also research about when people finish courses, regardless of grades BME people often don’t get jobs as quickly or at all.

The same as for women in many fields though thankfully not as much these days.

With again not knowing how many applicants applied for the jobs overall which is likely to be a high majority of white people as there are more white people in Britain.

That doesn’t make sense. It’s not about whether the people who got the jobs are white or not, it was about whether the fake white candidates got more interviews than the fake black candidates. It doesn’t matter whether there are more white people in the UK or not. The CVs were identical apart from the names.

On the subject of hair, I have noticed quite a lot of Black women wear their hair very short (sometimes dyed bright colours) - having read all the stuff about how time-consuming it is to keep afro hair 'professional' looking, I guess the very short cuts are a way of saving time as well as a fashion choice.

Or it might be that they have a weave and I think if you’re getting one made from human hair it’s cheaper to get a shorter one?

That doesn’t make sense. It’s not about whether the people who got the jobs are white or not, it was about whether the fake white candidates got more interviews than the fake black candidates. It doesn’t matter whether there are more white people in the UK or not. The CVs were identical apart from the names.

It does make sense to me overall but I see what you mean, that particular part of what I said makes no sense in the studys case.

Rosamund well I hope that does change.

Frequency what qualifies you to talk about the care of 4C hair? Your posts made it clear that you haven't done any specialist training relating to Afro hair and you admitted you don't even know how to cut it. Why are you arguing with people who actually do have it, know how to care for it and have experience doing so?

The amount of ignorance being spouted on posts like these is quite incredible. It's just hair for goodness sake. Dreads are professional, afros are professional, straight hair is professional, curly hair is professional. It's all professional! Who determines what is and isn't acceptable in the work place or at home? As long as it is clean and semi-tidy, are people really that bothered...? I thought our generation was moving past this nonsense.

In terms of appropriation, I don't think that white people wearing braids counts as that. White people wearing dreadlocks? That's a bit of a grey area. I might get some stick for this but I can't stand dreads on straight hair. Appropriation aside, it just doesn't look right.

I am a black woman who wears box braids, tree braids, corn rows, Ghana braids, faux locks, and of course my natural curls in all their beauty. One thing I won't touch however are dreadlocks. It's not my place. That's my choice and opinion however and I appreciate that clearly opinions are divided on this one!

Why are dreads not your place arialiyah?

Also, dreads on white people doesn't mean dreads on straight hair! I'm not a fan, but I suspect a lot of the white people who do have them have curly hair anyway. Just makes it easier. I think it would be really difficult to get straight hair to even do it.

One of my (white, curly haired) kids has hair that 'locks' a little bit sometimes. Just a tiny bit, strands here and there. I trim it off, she would never let me brush it out and I don't think a short curly blonde do with the occasional tiny random dreadlock looks good anyway.

@Beetlejizz Hi. I was simply making a statement that I did not think dreads on straight hair look good. I didn't make a connection in that statement to white people. I would feel the same way if someone with Thai or Italian (to name a couple) heritage wore them. Similarly though. I think I would feel the same way if someone with say Caucasian textured hair (curly or straight) wore them. Appropriation aside. As again, it doesn't look right. Afro hair has a very specific texture which holds dreads very well. Black people do not need to put rubber bands in their hair or go for weeks without washing it, or grease it to high heavens to get their dreads to hold. I would know, I have (a lot of) close family in the Caribbean with dreads.

For me, as an atheist who has no religious belief, and is not particularly politically motivated, I don't feel like it is my place to wear dreadlocks that have a lot of emotional and political meaning attached to them. If I did wear dreads, I would be doing it because I thought it looked nice or because I fancied looking like my aunt. Personally, I'm not comfortable with that.

Italians are white... but I agree I don't think straight hair and dreads is a good combination. I don't know how they would even work for Thai hair, imagine that's probably harder than European even, since the majority of white people have a bit of a wave at least. Braids yes, of course. They work for all hair textures.

Thanks for clarification re your feelings on wearing dreads yourself. I can see why you wouldn't want to.

@Beetlejizz a lot of Italians don't actually see themselves as white. There's a lot of debate around it. It's an interesting one if you want to have a google.

And no problem. As I said it's only my opinion. I'm fairly liberal so open to other interpretations. As long as people are polite and put their argument across respectfully. Otherwise I can't be bothered to argue. No point talking to a barking dog!

Best of luck to you and your little ones (sound very cute by your description).