Cultural misappropriation and hair

[meandthem]

Am I being unreasonable to object to ethnicity being a factor in respect of what hairstyle choices women are "allowed"? I am pissed of that it now seems acceptable for some styles to be considered cultural misappropriation. What happened to the sisterhood and feminism and women's right to do what the hell we want with our hair!

In the full knowledge that they would switch it off when they go to a job interview - and get the job (being a white MC male)
Whereas a young black male who maybe naturally has that lingo to a degree would maybe NOT get the job if he used that language - due to stereoptyes about gansta culture . Etc

Black men/boys are not stupid. They are able to switch of street slang.
Some won't because they haven't been educated but that would go for white working class kids too.

Its not the same as speaking with a London/Carribean accent.

My boys can use street slang but they don't use it at home. Nor did their dad (who is better spoken than me).

I do agree that MC kids aping ganstas is ridiculous.

frequency

We are misunderstanding each other.

1. You said all workers should do basic grooming. Everyone agrees.

1. Towel drying is fine for men, but that’s another story.

1. Most women feel they need to do more than towel dry for work. I agree.

1. Type 1 and 2 can wash, blow dry and straighten at home in about 1-2 hours.

1. Type 4c hair cannot do that.

1. Do you have steel wool in your kitchen. I’m not saying 4C hair is steel wool. But combing it is EXACTLY that.

1. It is tangled into thousands of mini dreadlocks after washing.

1. Some women go to hairdressers and get these made into an even, uniform size. These are afro dreadlocks.

1. Some women spend 5+ hours every 6 weeks at the salon braiding for this reason. The smaller the braids, and the longer the 4c hair, and the longer the extensions the longer on the hairdressers chair. (Long term this leads to a Naomi Campbell hairline). Sorry I don’t know how to do photos.

10. To comb 4c hair it must first be softened as pp said. Otherwise it cannot be combed. That’s sitting with conditioner, sometimes with heat.

11. You said stretching the hair was unnecessary. PP told you not doing that will break it.

12. Who are you, with type 1/2/3 to tell someone with type 4 that you don’t believe they are telling the truth about how long the process takes?

13. Maybe there ARE shortcuts, but you have been told that over weeks and months they cause hair loss.

14. So to summarise for someone with 4C to have their hair look ‘professional’ is an order of magnitude beyond what you have to do.

15. I gave an example about tight corsets. A time traveller looking at out clothes would say they are indecent without a corset. We know they may look nice but are restrictive.

16. In the same way someone with 4C hair having to ‘corset’ their hair is unreasonable.

On which point(s) do we disagree?

On which point(s) do we disagree?

You do not have to stretch 4C hair to comb it. The PP did that to straighten her hair later on. No-one on this thread has ever said that 4C hair types should have to wear their hair in Eurocentric styles in order to get on life. They shouldn't and is abhorrent that they still have to.

I did not disagree that 4C hair takes more time/care but that's life I'm afraid.

Braids also cause hair loss if used over long periods of time, fwiw.

You seem intent on picking apart my replies, so I'm bowing out now.

And I still haven't learned what is appropriative about Kylie Jenner wearing dutch braids or other light skinned people wearing braids, which is what this thread is about.

4C hair takes more time/care but that's life I'm afraid.

Women must hire a maid to help lace their corsets, and yes they cause scarring and organ damage, but that’s life I’m afraid.

It is really interesting to learn how challenging afro hair can be - makes me appreciate my dull, flat hair a bit more.

But I am confused as to the link between managing afro hair and cultural appropriation of hairstyles. And no one has explained why enjoying and the food & music of different cultures is OK but hair styles aren't. In my opinion the reason for this is sexism - middle class men like jazz music so that is cool, working class girls like fancy hair styles so that is all kinds of wrong.

Sorry, I should have said sexism and classism - the perfect British storm.

But dreads are not professional for any race.

Urgh.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/30/marco-pierre-white-jamaican-dish-knorr-advert food can be appropriation too.
It's about how someone feels when their culture is borrowed, carved up, and used to benefit someone who is probably relatively privileged. People of colour are othered, and not believed to be authorities in their own cultures.
So it's not exactly the acts of appropriation themselves that are the whole problem - it's the context.

When I see MPW do those Knorr adverts it makes me realised what a HUGE divorce pay out he must have had

The Navigator

I was just responding to some pps who were essentially saying ‘why can’t they just do their hair “professionally”’.

I was just responding to some pps who were essentially saying ‘why can’t they just do their hair “professionally”’

That's not what I was saying at all and you know it.

I explained several times that I believe black women should be able to wear their hair natural but natural does not = braids or dreads, if the workplace states these are unacceptable. There are other options, FFS.

To me cultural appropriation is someone wearing a Native American headress or similar. I fully accept how that is viewed as offensive.

But dreads no chance. They do not belong to a particular race or culture and nor should they. There is evidence of them thousands of years ago in my dd Celtic heritage. She has very curly difficult long red hair which forms into dreads naturally. Hell will freeze over before I tell her that she shouldn't wear her hair naturally if she so chooses just because she is white.

Frequency

I gave you numbered points to try and understand where the breakdown in communication is. You chose not to use the points and said I was ‘taking apart your comments’

I do not know what you think 4C natural hair is.

It is a version of micro freeform dreadlocks. I have said that repeatedly.

Any other way of wearing it takes hours to accomplish.

Tell me what the ‘other options’ are that do not take over 2 hours daily. (Apart from short cropped/shaved)

You will make millions as there are millions of women who would like to know that answer.

blackncurly.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/WhatsApp-Image-2018-01-16-at-8.03.38-PM.jpeg

That is 4C Afro hair.

Unless it is stretched or braided it will lock into permanent freeform locs.

I have a friend who's a barrister in London. He's black and has short dreads; fashion rather than religion. He's loaded and doing very well in his career indeed.
I work in public sector. I work with a lot of black people and have worked with a few people, both male and female, with proper, long, dreadlocks. In their teaching roles they've done fine, but I don't know about other sectors, and I don't know if they have been rejected at other job interviews because of their hair.

There are so many different hairstyles and types at my workplace, including Afros and cropped hair, and braids, as well. It's certainly not all relaxed hair and wigs, not that there is anything wrong with that!

It's awful that some people feel forced into relaxing and straightening their hair, even if the employers intention is not to be racist, but to be, just 'groomed' in a certain way.

The point about young men. All young men, black or white, or anything in between, are disadvantaged, if they are uneducated to the extent that they don't know you speak differently at a job interview than when with their friends.

On the other hand, he has commented about the harsher sentences young black men get, compared to white criminals.
Not saying everything is hunky dory, was just commenting on his hair and profession!

Rosamund1 - I love that hair.

And it can be combed and manipulated into twist-outs over night to protect it and prevent tangles and styled in any number of ways the next day.

Or it can be washed, conditioned and detangled and left as is.

It does not have to be left uncombed to create permanent dreads. Doing so would not be acceptable in most workplaces, just as not combing caucasian hair would not be acceptable in most workplaces.

I never claimed styling 4C hair was as easy as styling 1A hair but there are options beyond dreads, braids or time consuming straightening that should be accepted. If a workplace, such as the one in the BBC link does not accept this, then yes, that needs challenging.

And none of that has anything to do with a white women wearing dutch braids or cornrows to a festival.

combed

That’s the point.

4C hair cannot be combed WITHOUT HOURS OF PREP

I think I give up.

But it can.

It can be softened with conditioner, combed through and put in twists to rinse. You could then leave your hair dry your hair in these twists to gently stretch it, after which it can be combed through again with oils and leave in conditioners.

Yes, it is more time consuming than straighter hair but can also be washed less often without looking like an oil slick like straighter hair would. The twists could be worn on a weekend/non work day outside.

It is also necessary to spread oils through your hair if you want to keep it healthy. Straighter hair types can get away with brushing their natural oils through their hair unless it's super long or damaged. Kinkier, courser hair has always been oiled to keep it healthy, in all cultures, regardless of the dominant race.

Wait.
@frequency I don't believe dreads are suitable for any professional setting

Are you aware that some people are BORN with dreads?? In the Yoruba culture in West Africa, it is called 'Dada'. It is attributed to spiritual events and so before the child is 1yr old, there is a ritual (and party) carried out where the child's hair is shaved by a spiritualist / juju maam, and his / her head is washed with animal blood so that the 'spiritual' thingy doesn't continue. Some religions keep the 'dada' however for this reason and people with natural dreads have to follow very strict rules - can't eat this, can't touch that, can't see this etc.

Anyway, after the ceremony, the child is noticeably weaker than before his head was shaved off - all very spooky. Nowadays, with people becoming more and more westernized and not believing in spooks, they may let the child have his dreads until he is old enough to decide if he wants it or not - or until some granny from somewhere insists the head is shaved.

So, dreadlocks come naturally for some and it cannot be untangled. I'm sure there is a scientific explanation for it. The hair has to grow out to reveal a regular undergrowth and then shaved off. So yes, a poor boy or girl with dreads, no matter how well they groom and clean their hair will always look unprofessional to you.

There isn't a lot known about it in these parts so you won't find easy info on the first pages of google. Here, it's seen as 'fashion' where people intentionally go and 'loc' their hair.

*PS - I keep using 'he / his' because for some reason, all my experience of this happens to be with boys.

I think I give up. Indeed!

The options frequency has given take many hours, I realised from a young age because some of my cousins have 4c hair. My hair took quite some time for my mum to do each morning, but it was nothing like the time my aunties needed to spend on my cousins hair.

It’s not the same, in terms of time, as combing Caucasian hair. To twist and manipulate hair, a lot of time and products often.

So basically, for women with 4c hair, if their workplaces won’t accept the dreads that their hair naturally forms - then anything else deemed “neat” takes ages. Yes, white women are expected to have a tidy appearance for work. And yes, this can take some time too but not anywhere near as long as women with 4c hair.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder if frequency has ever touched 4C hair. Not 4b. 4c.

What stupid people to be spending all that time when they could simply use conditioner and twists. Lying all over the internet that their hair cannot be combed.
Such silly billies.

Sorry @Frequency but you have it ALL wrong. I was the one who posted the steps to get 4C hair to look normal.

And it can be combed and manipulated into twist-outs over night to protect it and prevent tangles and styled in any number of ways the next day - Do you know what it's like to go to sleep in a 'twist-out'? Every night? And how long do you think it takes to style in any number of ways the next day' when you're going to work?

It can be softened with conditioner, combed through and put in twists to rinse. You could then leave your hair dry your hair in these twists to gently stretch it, after which it can be combed through again with oils and leave in conditioners - Unbelievable - If you knew how painful it is to 'comb through' my hair... It has to be done in sections and slowly... I can only put a comb in my hair when it's wet with conditioners. The twist to rinse is so that it doesn't lock straight back once you finish washing. 'Combing through' 4C hair with conditioners and oils still takes hours. And you want to comb it through again when dry??

Or it can be washed, conditioned and detangled and left as is - No such thing with 4c hair if you want to go to work. After detangling, you MUST do something (twist, straighten, braid or plait it) otherwise, you end up with a tangled mess on the top of your head.

Frequency, I don't want it to seem like I'm picking apart your points but you really don't know what you're talking about until you have seen and manipulated 4c hair. (I wish I could loan you my daughter for the afternoon just to show you!) It can only be imagined. It's not your fault.

My point is that the 'professional' looks that you want takes forever to achieve. Hours and hours on Saturdays and Sundays because people don't get what goes into it so that I can appear 'normal' on a Monday. For me to turn up at work at 8am, imagine having to spend 2 hours just to be able to have 'acceptable' hair. Some weekends, no one sees me or the kids because of all the hair that needs to be done so we can appear 'normal' and 'professional' to you all.

Braids and plaits are the neatest things most black women can take to work. It costs time, effort and ££. Braids are acceptable in most work places - and even that (from this thread) is unprofessional to you.

I give up.