I don't know how I feel about abortion anymore

[sirlee66]

I've always been very pro-choice. A woman's body. A woman's right to choose.

I'm currently 34 weeks pregnant with my first and now I think my thoughts are changing.

I believe the cut off is 24 weeks? There was a lovely lady on here the other day whose waters broke and she gave birth to a baby girl at 25 weeks! If a baby can survive that early... It just seems...wrong!

Maybe the cut off could be lowered. I started feeling flutters at about 15 weeks so maybe before then.

I don't know what the answer is. I still feel really strongly that ultimately, the mother should decide but I just can't get past babies surviving outside the womb at the same age as a baby that could be aborted.

Maybe it's just pregnancy hormones. I also can't stop think about the poor women who have to make that decision. It must be so awful and I just want to give them a big hug.

I guess my question is, AIBU to not really know how I feel about it?

I thought the equation of 'aborting foetuses with severe disabilities' with 'aborting black or female foetuses' was extremely offensive and stupid

No. As someone who is prochoice I would respect the right of a woman to abort for all of the above reasons.
But disability (severe is not relevant) is the only scenario where a woman is subjected to institutionalized pressure to terminate.
Therefore as a feminist and someone who is prochoice I am alarmed that so many other women do not understand this is happening and wonder how they would react if the same was being done to women pregnant with black or female fetuses. Other groups who face discrimination, challenges and dangers throughout their lives.

Not to persuade anyone that women shouldn't have to choice to terminate. But to illustrate that women are not being given access to objective information.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Ok tinky, So how are their abortion stats so high? You readily is nothing to do with how the information is shared, what information is shared, what bias is spun the doctors, etc

It may or may not be, the point is, you do not know. You are guessing. Also you are missing the point that the population is so small that when you are talking percentages you are talking about single figures. It's skewed and not comparable to populations twenty times the size. The abortion stats are not high at all.

But disability (severe is not relevant) is the only scenario where a woman is subjected to institutionalized pressure to terminate

Do you have anything to back that up other than opinion? Do you know what its like to live in a country that doesn't even offer any testing because you can't have an abortion even for incompatible with life diagnoses?

But to illustrate that women are not being given access to objective information

How do you know what information women are getting everywhere? You don't.

Got half way through RTFT and had to stop. How ANYONE can continue posting emotive crap about killing babies, after even one woman has posted her harrowing experience of late termination is beyond me. I can't even imagine such suffering.

Google Ann Lovett. That's the hell "pro-lifers" want to plunge us back into. They can get to fuck with their misogynistic guilt-tripping shit.

I often think of Ann Lovett in recent years, Greensleeves. The saddest story.

How do you know what information women are getting everywhere? You don't.

Ok so prefix it with any country that offers abortion. The information is bias in favour of aborting babies with chromosome disorders.

It shouldn't be no abortion offered at all or pressure women into aborting foetus' with disabilities. They should be available bit with proper objective information. How is that hard to grasp

It shouldn't be no abortion offered at all or pressure women into aborting foetus' with disabilities. They should be available bit with proper objective information. How is that hard to grasp

How is it hard for you to grasp that you don;t know what advice women are getting? It IS available, proper objective information. I've seen it. So your premise is faulty from the start.

Abortion is an emotive subject, but I don't think it's a great idea to be shouting down a male poster who disagrees with it simply because he's a man.

The worst thing Pro-Choicers can do is enforce an echo chamber and discourage people from engaging in discussion.

I'm in Ireland, and we obviously have this issue coming up in the referendum at the start of the summer. I've seen a lot of Pro-Choice women shout down men because they'll obviously never have to go through an unwanted pregnancy or birth themselves. They seem to forget that come the election, these guys have an equal vote to them. Pointing out some facts or engaging them in discussion might actually change their vote, instead of entrenching the status quo.

Actually I don't just think women are pressured to abort in the case of disability. Young women are, unemployed women are. So are mentally ill ones (me), women with learning disability. Women in poverty. Women with histories of abuse and/or chaotic lifestyle.
What can be taken from that is that abortion can be justified for all women, when the foetus is 'damaged/abnormal'. As in, the outcome will be bad because of the foetus.
The points I have made are to me more poignant, because rather than abortion being the best option because of defective baby (see above), instead abortion is pressured because of defects in the woman which would mean aborting a baby would be better than having that woman as a mother.
Women having freedom to abort/bodily autonomy etc is necessary. But the judgements that come are not just about disability. They are about ability as well. Very few people support the 'dregs' of society to become mothers, it would rather they weren't.

Haven't read the whole thread but you say pregnancy has made you rethink these things. Understandable. I disagree on a personal level but yanbu

Just think, you're pregnant now, if you have a girl wouldn't you want her to have access to a termination should the need arise? I have a DD and am grateful that for all this country's faults, as it stands, should she feel unable in any way to continue a pregnancy, she wont be forced to. Especially if her life or health is at risk by doing so

Actually I don't just think women are pressured to abort in the case of disability. Young women are, unemployed women are. So are mentally ill ones (me), women with learning disability. Women in poverty. Women with histories of abuse and/or chaotic lifestyle

Again, I don't agree. You sound like a pro lifer trying to spread the notion of pro-abortion groups, with no basis at all. Who is doing all this pressurising? When women are given their options people like you call it being pressurising them into abortions. It's just not true and its unfair and irresponsible of you to promote this idea.

I got to page 11 where @newdadNearly30 likens abortion to slavery. No, man - poor comparison.

I’ll simplify the argument for you though. Abortion is not a moral decision, it’s a practical one. So your question of morality is irrelevant.

The OP loves her healthy unborn baby and can’t imagine aborting...she has made a practical decision a personal and emotive one which causes confusion. Remove the personal concerns and you’re left with practical reasons.

tinkywinky2018 because of the number of people I know who have children with conditions "incompatible" with life who are told that this baby will be in constant pain, will ruin their lives, well scar their children, will only know pain, would be better off left to die, that they should have an abortion, an early induction, should withhold care. You honestly think I'm making it up that these are real conversations had with real parents about real babies??

Its great if you or puerile toy know got amazing support, please feel free to share which hospitals aren't telling parents they won't treat, they won't operate, they should sign a dnr etc because I know families desperate for that support.
If my sons condition had been picked up prenatal I would have be advised to abort, and advised again and again and again with all the relevant rhetoric mentioned above.

You honestly think I'm making it up that these are real conversations had with real parents about real babies??

I think you are clearly talking about a handful of people and saying it is everyone. It is not. And you are clearly incredibly biased. Of course if you get a diagnosis of incompatible with life you will get negativity. There is nothing positive about that diagnosis, its a death sentence. You are confusing reality with unfair negativity.

Actually, being pregnant and having a baby changed what I thought about abortion for me. It did not make me think I could impose my views on anyone else. I still think that abortion should be freely available for any woman who wants or needs it. At any time and for any reason.

Ok. If my daughter got pregnant at 14, who do you think would encourage her to keep the pregnancy?
You seem to be taking what I said the wrong way. I am not a pro lifer. You are making out I'm anti abortion because I suggested that social pressure influences some women to have abortions because their situation is not conducive with successful mothering. Of course that happens. It happens all the time. Although it is more subtle, and different to the 'your lives will be wrecked by a Down's baby' message. So that would be a 'you should have an abortion' message. What I'm referring to is the 'you have many years ahead of you', 'get an education first' 'you're not in a position to have a baby' messages. So not pro abortion, but anti-becoming a mother.
Illustrating that doesn't mean that I think abortion is used as a means of control. Simply that I think for some mothers, nobody would consider even mentioning abortion, but for others it would hang around as an option, even if the mother herself didn't bring it up to start with.
I personally don't think any woman wants an abortion. They just want to not be pregnant, and to not have to have a baby. And that right is theirs.

You are making out I'm anti abortion because I suggested that social pressure influences some women to have abortions because their situation is not conducive with successful mothering. Of course that happens

That's not social pressure, that is just reality. People saying its not a good idea to have a baby at 14 are not giving unfair pressure, they are stating a fact. People who say having a severely disabled baby is hard are not giving undue pressure, they are stating a fact.

And out of interest I wonder how many of the pro choice people on this thread would be able to be the HCPs carrying out the procedures, out of interest. Because if it is a human right someone has to do it. But not sure I could.

Why's it not a good idea? Women do it around the world, the age of consent is 12 in some countries. Giving birth young increases your chance of being around for your baby. So saying it's a bad idea isn't a fact at all.
Having a severely disabled baby is hard. But some will find it easier than others. And for someone who desperately wants and loves that child inside them, having the baby is better than not keeping it.
It isn't black and white.
And everyone has biased views.

Why's it not a good idea? Women do it around the world, the age of consent is 12 in some countries. Giving birth young increases your chance of being around for your baby. So saying it's a bad idea isn't a fact at all

If I have to tell you why having a baby at 14 is not a good idea then there is really no point in talking to you at all.

And "women around the world" do not do it, since 12 and 14 year olds are children, and not women.
Fucking hell.

Mental, social, economic, educational issues aside, it's not a good idea for a 14 year old to have a baby because teen pregnancies are considered high risk. Teen mothers are more likely to die from pregnancy related issues than women in their twenties.

I'm 4 weeks 5 days, and if my pregnancy did test positive for Down's, Edwards or Patau's I won't be continuing it.

It's important that women have that choice IMO.

tinkywinky2018 i'm hardly stating I've talked to everyone who has had a child with Edwards but I've yet to meet anyone who wasn't given an absolute bleak review of how utterly awful the impact of that child on their and their loved ones lives. If a child can survive, can live and laugh and love how are they incompatible with life. It's a biased turn of phrase to describe children who have a chance at living happy lives. And I know kids with Edwards who have less medical intervention than their chromosomally standard peers.

And its a death sentence in part because hospitals refuse to carry out operations that could reasonably extend a child's life. A child is part of a family and knows that.

I have no issue with accepting i'm biased. I do struggle with knowing people would look my child and think they would have aborted him even though he's walking, talking, going to mainstream school, has a wicked giggle and sense of humour, is adored and loves fiercely in return. I'm ok with that because I know I have no right make their decision.

But to suggest that only a small handful of people are given biased information in naive. Its great you got or know people who got balanced information because balanced information is what is needed.

Am I right in thinking you can still have a late term abortion for cleft palate? So not just conditions people consider not worth living with