I don't know how I feel about abortion anymore

[sirlee66]

I've always been very pro-choice. A woman's body. A woman's right to choose.

I'm currently 34 weeks pregnant with my first and now I think my thoughts are changing.

I believe the cut off is 24 weeks? There was a lovely lady on here the other day whose waters broke and she gave birth to a baby girl at 25 weeks! If a baby can survive that early... It just seems...wrong!

Maybe the cut off could be lowered. I started feeling flutters at about 15 weeks so maybe before then.

I don't know what the answer is. I still feel really strongly that ultimately, the mother should decide but I just can't get past babies surviving outside the womb at the same age as a baby that could be aborted.

Maybe it's just pregnancy hormones. I also can't stop think about the poor women who have to make that decision. It must be so awful and I just want to give them a big hug.

I guess my question is, AIBU to not really know how I feel about it?

I'm not a forced birthed at all I wouldn't dare tell a woman she can't have an abortion it's up to her

Okay, well end of discussion then. Because the rest of that sentence is you telling women they should not have abortions. I suspect you're 1COCK2KIDS back in a different guise. I bet he had some interesting views on abortion too.

Having had two DCs I am entirely pro-choice. No one should be forced to go through pregnancy against their will.

A friend of mine was diagnosed with breast cancer during her pregnancy. The pregnancy caused her cancer to develop more quickly. She decided not to have an abortion and was induced early instead. She was desperately ill throughout her baby's first months and didn't make it to her DD's first birthday. I am still devastated by her loss but at least I know it was her choice, not something that was imposed on her by laws that prioritise the well-being of a foetus over a living woman. That was her decision to make, not mine, or yours, or anyone else's.

(I think this thread was started as a way of 'discussing' abortion in the run-up to the referendum in Ireland, by the way. There will be more of this.)

@mogleflop See that very personal, you know nothing about me, I can only assume I struck a nerve as you think I'm correct ? Can you explain to me how morally its its ok for someone to end the life of a human being (if they believe it to be so) when there is no risk to mother or baby ?

@Newdad

Well, are you going to donate a kidney to my friend or are you going to murder her?

The extant human life always trumps the life that still needs to be birthed. Always. Once the baby has been extricated from the mother they can be accorded rights but until that point not. That’s why the viability point is a complete red herring. A baby born at 24 weeks does have equal rights - they are no longer a part of their mother’s body or dependent on it.

Personally I feel more comfortable with the legislation in France - can abort up to 12 weeks of pregnancy (14weeks from the last periods) unless medical condition/risk to mother/baby. That seems to fit for me. 24weeks seems very far into the pregnancy indeed. I certainly wouldn't be able to abort at that stage unless serious medical reasons.

@susanbunch I never told anyone not to have an abortion, also I have no clue who that person is.

because it is - and it's legal to boot

why is this so difficult for you to understand Newdad

It is acceptable for a woman to have the option to abort a healthy pregnancy on a whim because it would be unacceptable for a woman in a dire situation not to have the option.

That is it. That is as simple as it gets. It is unfortunate that by protecting the rights of women in some of the worst situations, we enable practices which are morally on the line, even morally repellent - but the alternative is far worse and you cannot have one without the other.

There will always be irresponsible women (people) who behave in ways you don't like. In fact, if they were denied abortion, their babies might end up in foster care, abandoned, or neglected instead - hardly a happy ever after outcome for those babies.

Thankfully I also believe these cases to be extremely few and far between. You don't need to constrict vulnerable women's rights in order to punish/control women who behave in ways you would prefer them not to.

NewDadNearly30
“Ok I'm happy to hear why ending the life of something you believe to be a perfectly healthy living being is acceptable if there's no risk to mother or baby ?”

I don’t understand why you think the reason needs to be acceptable to you? Is it just arrogance or is there a reason for the question?

I have no issue with ending a life that could be viable. I made it. I’ll have to birth it. I’ll decide if it shall be birthed via me or not.

So the individuals didn't make the choice to terminate for DS then, they were forced by the government and medical professionals?

I don't know how information is presented in Iceland but I do know how it is often presented in the UK.
Your baby WILL be severely disabled
Your baby WILL NOT have any quality of life
Your baby WILL NEVER go to 'normal' school.
Your baby will NEVER marry or have a relationship.
Your baby WILL have multiple medical issues
Your baby WILL NEVER live independently or get a job.
Your life WILL NEVER be the same. Your marriage my break up.
You SHOULD consider a termination.

That is how they talk to women whose babies are at risk of being born with Down Syndrome.
I have spoken to many women with children with Down Syndrome over a decade. From 16 years - 40+

They are told their children will have no life of their own and will ruin theirs.
They are told this by doctors who have have no experience of people with DS. You try and get a consultant to come to a training day. Won't happen.

Being pro choice means we have to respect a woman's right to terminate a black or female fetus but I doubt there is a single person among us who would not be horrified at the idea of women being taken aside after a scan and told that their lives were about to be ruined by that baby and that baby would live a wretched life because of its blackness or femaleness. Women being given leaflets outlining the terrible things awaiting their black or female child if they allowed it to be born.

These views don't make me pro birth. They make me firmly, utterly pro choice. Choice informed by quality, honest information.

@silentlyscreamingagain sorry only just read your post, I'm not going to give your friend my kidney for several reasons -

1. I feel truly for your friend but none of my actions have led to her needing a kidney.
2. You've completely strawmanned my point which was around the morality of abortion and not body ownership of women want to get an abortion that's up to them but they can't expect people to change their own subjective views of morality to fit with their decisions.
3. what your friend is going through is obviously life limiting, I fully accept the morality changes if the mother or child's health is at risk and that includes their mental health.

but none of my actions have led to her needing a kidney

So the truth comes out - anti-abortionists are all the same, they like to punish women for daring to have sex and become pregnant.

abortion isn't a moral issue - it's a medical and legal one

People with Down Syndrome, Edwards, Patau etc aren't worthless, better off dead, a burden, life wrecking things to be exterminated

What? The median lifespan of a child born with Edwards syndrome is 5-15 days.

More than 80% of children with patau syndrome die within the first 12 months of life.

In those short lives they face incredibly limited, painful and upsetting circumstances. A baby born to a life of 15 days of pain with death at the end of it absolutely would be better off not being born.

It’s very odd that you’ve lumped Down Syndrome in with two life-limiting conditions.

@mogleflop as I've said women can get abortions if they wish I'm not telling them what to do. I've also said that morally it's a different issue if the mother or child is at risk including mental health. You can attack me all you like but please stop putting forward arguments i never actually made. I posted on a thread specifically regarding the OPs view on morality of abortion.

TheFirstMrsDV thank you, that's what I was trying to say.

I know women told that this baby will ruin their lives, their children's lives, they will die before birth or shortly after, will only know pain, will never understand love. Parents told they won't even attempt resus, told they should sign DNR's, asked at every admission if they want to provide care even though it clearly states the notes and who would suddenly decide to letter the 5 yo due from a chest infection?? Just because they have t18 or t13

Newdad I don’t ask you to change your subjective view about abortion. You should never get one since you don’t want one.

But I have and I will and my reasons are good enough.

YY MrsDV - information is all people want. The chance to be treated as intelligent humans.

@newdad
Would you accept a womans opinion if we said viagra isnt needed, lets scrap it, erectile disfunction is bs, lets not try fix it. Its one thing i accept my opinion on isnt as valid on as a males as id never need or experience such issues so what do i know
You can have an opinion but let it be known as you will never experience pregnancy or birth many women wont take your opinion seriously.
The slave analogy? Well both men and women were kept as slaves. Forced gestation is a form of slavery though.....

Why do you keep saying I'm anti abortionist when I've said several times I'm not ? @bertiebotts