to think there must be some kind of border in Ireland / Northern Ireland because of people

[kalapattar]

All the talk has been about goods and services.

But how will people travel between the UK and Ireland without a physical border? Passport checks, immigration status etc. There won't be a border between mainland UK and Northern Ireland so how will this work?

It's not just the DUP who'd be miffed at a sea boarder, all Unionists would, more than half of the population. They see it in the same way that an English person would see a border across Surrey but, unlike the English, they have a trigger happy arm.

Sorry Gladitsallover, I'm a bit cynical about the whole thing at this stage. The UK government seem to be going with the "gosh, how did this happen" method of dealing with the problems that everyone knew were coming.

I'm almost scared to ask - but Julie, you aren't, surely, mixing up the formation of the NI assembly with the GRA when you refer to the "Belfast agreement" are you?

Sorry, the GFA obviously

The northern ireland issue alone would be a good enough reason to remain in the EU IMO. Can't see any way of resolving this to everyone's satisfaction.

You can't rely on sinn féin to rescue you from this ridiculous folly. The point of sinn féin is to represent the people who don't accept the UK parliament having a role in any part of Ireland. If sinn féin took up their seats they might as well not exist.

If there was a vote on this single issue would the people who voted for them really not want their MPs involved?

They really wouldn't, the nationalists know exactly what they are voting for when they vote Sinn Fien and that's no sitting MP in Westminster. It would be like asking the Unionists to pop down to Dublin and ask the Dáil for something.

Why can't we stay in the customs union anyway? Surely that is what most people voted for?

NO physical border now, you just drive normally and are in NI or Rep of I. They couldn’t put a physical border in. Would be impossible.

Do most people know what they voted for?

excuse this naïve question but would it really not be possible to have the border setup in the same way as Switzerland/Germany? I don't know how many land border crossings there are but there are a good few, and lots of them are unmanned, or they're manned occasionally. There are things you're not supposed to take across the border/duty to pay for some stuff, but they just let it slide.

Switzerland is in the Schengen Area, pays for access to (most of) the single market and was forced to continue to accept freedom of movement despite voting against it in a referendum.

That wouldn't go down well with your average rabid Brexiteer.

Do most people know what they voted for?

Probably not. But the Leave campaign actually talked about staying in the customs union and single market - ergo lots of Leavers thought that was what they were voting for. If you put them together with the Remainers then we have a majority! If May really wanted to uphold the will of the people she wouldn't be interpreting Brexit to mean a hard Brexit - there is no way that that is what the majority of voters wanted.

100% agree with olddog's summary... that's why I'm baffled that the hard Brexit agenda took over. It makes NO SENSE.

Who mostly can't be deported because their country is unsafe.

Wow, Julie8008, you seem to know more about these 1 million illegal immigrants that the Government - how do you do it , ESP?

Re the GFA...time for something new julie?? What do you suggest?

So TM is saying she cannot accept this draft. Is this not what she basically accepted in December? What is the difference?

TM and the UK government seem to think they can keep saying "no, we won't do that" while not actually coming up with any suggestions themselves as to what they are going to do.

I feel sorry for the EU negotiators, it must be like reasoning with toddlers.

Apologies to reasonable toddlers, obviously!

I know the status of Switzerland Tuckers - my point, which I maybe didn't make clear, is that even though there are restrictions on imports of goods and services between Germany and Switzerland, the border is a porous one with frictionless movement of (most) border crossers and lots of unmanned crossings. Schengen facilitates that but presumably the UK could have a similar bilateral
agreement with Ireland if they wanted.

This sky article is fairly good at explaining the 3 options that the UK agreed in December to consider for ROI & Norn. I understand them as below:

1. a fantastic trade deal will be agreed; at the moment the UK version of this = multiple "baskets" which EU dismisses as unacceptable cherrypicking of current membership privileges.

2)technological solution (electronic tracking of all goods movement): EU calls this Narnia since it needs magic to happen.

3. What EU fleshed out because it's feasible, customs union with border in Irish sea betw. rUK & Norn.

I guess UK needs Aslan very badly right now.

Actually @julie8008 you will find it collapsed over the RHI scandal.
No there was a 'scandal' (RHI is hardly mentioned now), plenty of governments have scandals and keep on trucking. But one party used this as an excuse to bring down Stormont so they could try and use blackmail rather than democracy to get an Irish Language Act. Either way a year later what use is the Belfast agreement?

you aren't, surely, mixing up the formation of the NI assembly with the GRA when you refer to the "Belfast agreement" are you?
No Maryz I am not, I think you should study your N.Ireland history in more detail.

Why can't we stay in the customs union anyway? Surely that is what most people voted for? Because the consequences of staying in the customs union mean we are defacto staying in the EU but with no representation. It was made very clear in the vote that meant leaving the EU not staying in.

Re the GFA...time for something new julie?? What do you suggest? I would suggest a more normalised system with a party winning an election, forming the 'government' and the next party becoming the opposition. That way one can't blackmail the other.

A lot of reports from the EU countries indicate that the most likely solution is a combination of a FTA and technology. Its the EU elite that are pushing this hard border hysteria.

There's an amusing comedy starting Friday night bbc1 called Soft Borders - shows border guards policing a plank of wood crossing a stream between the north and south. Looks v funny

Worldsworst looking forward to that!

I know my Irish history thanks.

I was just asking, because some of your arguments are very confused. You seem to think that the formation of the assembly in Stormont has something to do with the whole border issue, which it doesn't, it's a UK issue, not an NI one. And what did you mean by the words "Belfast agreement"?

You do realise that the GFA is also nothing to do with the Assembly, don't you? You realise that it was the UK government who signed off on this international agreement, nothing to do with members of the Assembly? And that it's not possible for one country (the UK) to sign up to an international agreement, and then just renege on it - especially when they haven't offered an alternative. Are you aware of what international laws will be broken if the UK government just decides to "replace the GFA"?

Are you suggesting using technology on all 275 border crossings? Or are you going to close some of them, and if so which ones?

Also, as an aside, who are the EU elite?

Democracy WAS used in the case of the ILA. It was agreed upon in the St Andrews agreement. The DUP then reneged on that once devolution was up and running.

Surprised Julie hasn't mentioned magical invisible border unicorns yet.

As I said in my post above, there is already an excise border between NI and RoI (as between all countries in the EU) managed by electronic paperwork. Similar system would work.
Trucks are allowed to use unmanned crossings in Norway/Sweden if goods are pre-declared.
Basically complete the paperwork on the system and manifest, job done. Assuming free trade agreement, no duty needs be paid. 90% of goods from outside the EU have no duty anyway.