to think there must be some kind of border in Ireland / Northern Ireland because of people

[kalapattar]

All the talk has been about goods and services.

But how will people travel between the UK and Ireland without a physical border? Passport checks, immigration status etc. There won't be a border between mainland UK and Northern Ireland so how will this work?

frankchickens a hard border existed until 1993, when operational checks were abolished because both countries were in the single market.

You don't have any kind of handle

Norway & Sweden don't have a recent history like The Troubles. There is no GFA equivalent for them.

It's shocking to have to explain the UK's internal politics to people in use UK from outside.

Not sure if this has been posted before, but for some comic relief

twitter.com/borderirish?lang=en

For those struggling with the history, this may be helpful

The Irish Border@BorderIrish Feb 26
Me & the UK:
1921: We must have a border in Ireland!
1921-late 60s: Smugglers! Protect the border!
Late 1960s-1990s: Stop them at the border!
Late 1990s: This isn’t working!
1998: Nice soft border!
2016: Hard borders everywhere!
2017-18: Shit, the Irish border, forgot about that.

Ok julie what was agreed in december was regulatory alignment, in the absence of a deal. But on bbc ulster this am it was argued that the only way that could be implememted was if NI at least or the whole UK stayed in the customs union??

@Booboostwo

@eyeroller

"anyone who wants a United ireland and currently lives in Northern Ireland needs to get their head checked out. People in the republic are in poverty so much so that they can't go to hospitals or the dentist cause they don't have free health care. And don't get me started on the armchair republicans driving their DLA cars to collect their sterling unemployment benefit"

Uncalled for and entirely inaccurate!! Have you been down south in Ireland! Good god. They are thriving compared to the UK. you're talking utter crap! And I often find people who bitch about dla claimants have chips on their shoulders!

I remember there was outrage and rightly so when similar was said about Africa, and HQ were quick to delete.

Yet again anti-Irish sentiment is left to stand. And it’s All. The. Time on here.

Mumsnet might have posters from all over the world but not all posters are treated equally...

And if one of the Irish papers chooses to lift this thread it’ll make for some interesting furor online...

I think some people don't actually realise what the NI/Ireland border is like.

This is worth a read - there are more border crossings than there are along the entire EU Eastern border.

It will not be possible to man them in a Norway/Sweden (or Switzerland/wherever) type of way. They will have to be closed, as they were during the troubles - I think there were only about 30 officially open then, though many were opened/closed on an ad hoc basis by locals.

This probably a pretty accurate representation of current UK Government plans:

www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/northern-ireland-border-could-be-beaded-curtain-says-government-20180228145116

What I don't understand is that Cameron first floated the idea of the referendum in 2013. Why on earth did nobody say anything to him about the Irish border then? Did he just ignore it on the basis that he'd win the referendum? Or what? I just don't get why nobody thought of this earlier. Well I don't believe that nobody thought of it earlier.

Was it mentioned during the parliamentary debates for the legislation allowing the referendum?

I've only been to NI once and when I went it was in 2004 so the border was completely open and you only knew you'd crossed the border by the fact that the road signs etc changed.

I think the whole of the UK should stay in the customs union. It would solve the NI issue and also acknowledge that nearly half the UK population voted to remain and therefore it should not be winner take all but some sort of compromise. We leave the EU but we maintain alignment in many things. It would be better for the economy anyway.

I pointed out to you before there are already an estimated over 1 million illegal immigrants in the UK Who mostly can't be deported because their country is unsafe. I don't think our courts will declare EU countries unsafe to be deported to yet.

it was argued that the only way that could be implemented was if NI at least or the whole UK stayed in the customs union? Yes that is argued, however I agree with the government who made the agreement that alignment does not mean the UK has to stay in the customs union.

Maryz, excuse this naïve question but would it really not be possible to have the border setup in the same way as Switzerland/Germany? I don't know how many land border crossings there are but there are a good few, and lots of them are unmanned, or they're manned occasionally. There are things you're not supposed to take across the border/duty to pay for some stuff, but they just let it slide.

Not that I'm trying to minimise the seriousness of the situation - apart from anything else, Switzerland is a country of 8 million with soft borders on all sides.

however I agree with the government who made the agreement that alignment does not mean the UK has to stay in the customs union

What does it mean then?

Either you're aligned or you're not?

I don't understand this at all. How can we have a border with the EU with a gaping hole it in in Ireland. What's the point of any border at all?

It's not just about the GFA, though as far as I'm concerned, upholding that should be everyone's number one priority, because lord knows you don't want the consequences if it is dismantled.

In the event of a hard brexit, the WTO requires a hard border. As someone pointed out on another thread, what's left, a vote to leave the planet?

Anyway, all of this was obvious to anyone with a brain before the referendum. The Irish government were blue in the face talking about it then, have done everything they can to keep it a priority since the vote.

May signed up to NI being aligned with the EU as a backstop option in December. This is not new news. It's almost like the brexiteers aren't paying attention.

Actually meant that for the other thread, sorry

Well the other thread has gone now. Thanks MNHQ!

The trouble with taking down the other thread is that, while that particular op mightn't have been on the level, there are a scary number of people who actually think like that.

I'm beginning to think that a fair few of the current conservative government are among them [cynical]

Why cynical? It really seems that they have no idea of the depth of the hole they have dug.

At the Norway/Sweden border, although there are unmanned crossings, you're not allowed to cross these in a HGV- they must go to a manned crossing and fill in paperwork. There is an active border force to try and catch smugglers, and they can check people's passports if they want to (even in the Schengen zone). None of this would be acceptable in NI.

I think it's similar in Switzerland, in that checks can and do take place- just not everywhere or all the time. There are flying squads of Swiss border guards that can stop any car anywhere to check for smuggled goods and can check the occupants' ID cards. There is border infrastructure in place on the main routes. Again, none of this would be acceptable on the island of Ireland.

Despite what people have suggested, I can't see how a fully automated system would work without some kind of check to back it up? Otherwise, there would be smuggling of both goods and people across the border, surely? If you saw a car cross on ANPR that wasn't supposed to be crossing, presumably someone would do something about it? Otherwise, what's the point?

I really do think the only solution (other than staying in the EU ;) ) is to have different rules for NI, and a border between NI and rUK- so ID checks and customs checks on ferries and planes. It might be unpalatable to the DUP, but it's the only solution to save the GFA. And if the UK breaks the GFA, not only will we restart the troubles, why would any country in the world sign a deal with us ever again? No-one will trust us or want to sign trade deals with us.

Someone really should have considered this issue before opening up the issue to a referendum. It would be such tragic irony for David Cameron to ultimately cause the break up of the UK.

There is a lot of talk about the Belfast agreement but it seems to be almost dead already without any Brexit influence. The Northern Ireland Assembly collapsed over a year ago all because one party wants an Irish Language Act. Might be time for something new.

Yes, you could find out more about this and then post stuff that makes sense.

That's a new option.

Actually @julie8008 you will find it collapsed over the RHI scandal... I would suggest you get your facts right.

I know Sinn Fein MPs never take up their seats, and I do understand why- but surely the issue of a hard border in Ireland would mean they'd have to think very hard about taking their seats? If there was a vote on this single issue would the people who voted for them really not want their MPs involved?