to think there must be some kind of border in Ireland / Northern Ireland because of people

[kalapattar]

All the talk has been about goods and services.

But how will people travel between the UK and Ireland without a physical border? Passport checks, immigration status etc. There won't be a border between mainland UK and Northern Ireland so how will this work?

Bettyfood really you find it funny? It's a little bit more than a pain in the arse to me and to a lot of other people I know who live in NI and are genuinely very concerned about the future. Sorry in this case is a bit of a meaningless phrase but it really does show the indifference and lack of actually thinking.

Right now you have to show photo ID to take a flight anywhere, even from England to Scotland. Could you just extend that to Ireland-England ferries? If you don’t have it or it’s not a British one, then you can’t travel.

Is that too simple?

if the UK leaves the EU, the ROI would become obliged under EU rules governing external borders to maintain some control over the border, to insure that goods imported across the border comply with EU rules.

At some point in the future, it maybe possible to organise this in a similar way as the Norwegian/Swedish border is controlled, but even this involves long queues of traffic at crossing points. None of the infrastructure required is in place, neither are any of the systems required to manage the flow of goods across the border. The idea that all of this can be designed, built, tested and implemented in 56 weeks is laughable.
Either the EU are persuaded to look the other way until such a border can be set up, or a temporary 'hard' border is set-up to control goods or the island of Ireland is declared border-free, and all checks will take place at ports for anything coming in/out of the UK.
The DUP won't accept the last option, the 2nd option would require building to start now and would undoubtedly raise tensions in NI - that leaves the first, which takes right back to where we were last September, with the problem kicked into the long grass.

Outrageous that the EU should want to maintain its borders. (irony)

Eyeroller, Ireland may have beem in the hands of the Brits since norman times, but the rest of Ireland gained their independence less than 100 years ago. And until recently that was in a lot of people's living memory, so please dont talk about nationalists living in the dark ages.

And if the Tories keep going the way they are the NHS will go the way of the HSE. Its there for those that need it, not without its faults admittedly.

Eyeroller, are you this thick as shit in every aspect of your life, or just when it comes to disparaging Ireland?

There were more than 225,000 vehicle checks last calendar year for cars driving from Sweden to Norway. Mostly because there are much higher taxes on alcohol in Norway so there’s an incentive to smuggle booze. The Norway-Sweden border is soft for people (both in Schengen zone) but very hard for goods.

There’s nothing intrinsically wrong or sensitive about borders; they just mark political divides. Any time you create a new political division you create a border. It’s 500 years of history that makes the Irish border so sensitive, not borders per se.

Hercules that assumes that Ireland won't change their status on the schengen area. Which they possibly won't, but it should be future proofed against.

Is the Daily Mail and Express sold it Ireland? Do they have the same headlines as in England?The reason I ask is because I know theyre going to have headlines about trator brexit sell outs etc with regard to ireland and slagging off ROI and EU for problems of the UK gov (and leave voters) making.

@Julie8008
Genuine question for you:

The reason for a hard border is to stop EU nationals travelling into the UK via Ireland. They will no longer have the right to move freely between the EU and the UK.

You are adamant that we don't need a hard border. This suggests that there is not a risk of EU immigrants using Ireland and N.Ireland as a route into the UK.

If this is the case, and given that immigration concerns were one of the main rationales behind leaving the EU what is the actual point of Brexit?

Either we are not going to be stopping the immigration which was said to be such a problem, or there isn't actually a problem.

Which is it?

Ken, there's the Irish Daily Mail and Irish Star, not sure about the express. A lot of the content is the same but covers Irish stories as well and normally remembers to change the headlines slagging off the Irish. Still absolute rags though which DM and PIL both buy. FIL buys the Scum when he's here too.

It’s impossible. Shame they didn’t think about all this before they triggered article 50.

I think people would still vote leave! I'm in England, most people i know really don't give a shit about Ireland.

Seriously? It's not about giving a shit about Ireland, it's about the fact that the existence of Northern Ireland controls post-Brexit Britain's future. There can be no hard border. It's illegal. Theresa May acknowledged that 2 months ago and signed legally binding documents stating there would never be a hard border. There can not be a border between NI and GB, Theresa May also signed legally binding documents agreeing to this as demanded by Arlene Foster in order to back up her government. Ergo Britain can not leave the customs union. It's illegal.

The whole point of Brexit can not ever, nor could it ever, happen. Anyone who thought it could was and is a liar or a wally. Brexit means Britain gives up all it's power to vote in and influence the customs union (and it wielded a lot of power) but has to remain in the union and instead do whatever the other powerful countries choose without any real power to say no. It's the international equivalent of Elon Musk's first wife signing a post-nup, taking her from an equal financial partner in her marriage to someone who let him dictate all the terms. It's a batshit crazy move that makes electing Trump not the stupidest electoral decision of the century.

I would have thought that the people aspect would be the easiest tbh, if the UK keeps some form of common travel area with the EU and just restricts long term immigration. This would all be a hell of a lot easier if the UK had ID cards and a central register of where everyone lives, like they do in e.g. Germany and Switzerland.

But goods and services is the nightmare, because anything that goes into the EU should be compliant with EU regulations, but the UK doesn't want to be rule takers, they want to diverge. So you get this perfect dilemma where you can satisfy 2 out of the 3 interested groups: the DUP and friends (who want free movement of goods between GB and NI), hard Brexiteers (want regulatory divergence, therefore need a hard border with the EU whether that's at NI or in the Irish Sea) and NI republicans and RoI (free movement of goods between NI and RoI). The best thing about it is that each group has the power to scupper any deal: the DUP and the hard Brexiteers by refusing to support Theresa May in the Commons, and the Irish by vetoing a deal with the EU. And in the last round of talks they sort of fudged it, but it's still there, and they can chat all they want about the trade deal, this is still going to come back and bite them in the bum.

And in the last round of talks they sort of fudged it, but it's still there, and they can chat all they want about the trade deal, this is still going to come back and bite them in the bum.

It's not been fudged at all. The EU has Britain committed to staying in the customs union even if Britain doesn't yet want to accept that. There are two legally binding commitments in place, signed in the last year, to have no hard border. That's it, it's all over bar the hard brexiteers throwing their toys out of the plan. They had a position of power and they were stupid enough to convince enough other stupid people to give it away, along with free travel for it's citizens, for no good reason. There doesn't seem to be one single thing Britain can possibly gain from this nonsense, but you are all losing a whole lot. It's unbelievable to watch.

GladAllOverthe Ireland problem? Yup, that's all we are right? A problem? An impediment to Brexit? Shame on us for getting in the way
I'm sincerely sorry if it came over that way.
By calling it a 'problem' I didn't mean to diminish the situation in any way. It seemed a reasonable word at the time. Perhaps fuckup would have been better.

I'm strongly against Brexit anyway, and the impasse over your island is one of my reasons. It has been clear from the start that there was no satisfactory way to resolve it, but the Brexiteers just don't seem to care, as Johnson has just confirmed again.

Can i ask why the Brexiteers are now going crazy over the supposed text of this document, that if no agreemement can be reached then the UK stay in the customs union. Surely this was spelled out in Decemeber and noone seemed to mind?

Genuine question.

if no agreemement can be reached then the UK stay in the customs union But that wasn't what was agreed!

The reason for a hard border is to stop EU nationals travelling into the UK via Ireland. They will no longer have the right to move freely between the EU and the UK Its pretty simple, we will be able to deport them when they are caught. However I cant imagine why an EU national would give up all their rights, leave the EU just to try and work illegally probably for below minimum wage with no right to medical care, legal housing, or social benefits.

People in the republic are in poverty so much so that they can't go to hospitals or the dentist cause they don't have free health care

Excuse me? We have medical cards for huge numbers of people and therefore free medical care. Hospitals don't charge up front and most hospital care is free to all. Don't talk shit about what you don't know.

chocolate I can only assume that they thought they could renege on it. Certainly David Davies seemed to think so until the EU set him straight.

Or they hoped a magic billet solution would emerge in the meantime. Guess what folks, lots of people have been giving this a lot of thought and there are no easy answers unless you are Julie/Boris Johnson

So they're realising they are stuck.

Its pretty simple, we will be able to deport them when they are caught.

You've stated this before, and I pointed out to you before there are already an estimated over 1 million illegal immigrants in the UK.

Boris Johnson has shown his true colours. His leaked letter to the PM included such gems as...
it is wrong to see the task as maintaining ‘no border'

In other words, he suggests lobbing a grenade at the GFA.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that we have had a free travel agreement between the UK and Ireland since before the EU even existed - this isn't a new thing.

The only thing that has changed is that we are leaving the EU and the Republic of Ireland isn't.

There are plenty of other examples (Norway and Sweden just for one) where a land border exists.

Jesus wept. You don't have to be stupid to post that.

Oh, hang on...

There are plenty of other examples (Norway and Sweden just for one) where a land border exists.

Sorry, what's your point?
The Norway/Sweden border has physical infrastructure, including some border posts, ANPR cameras, the possibility of passport checks, and extensive vehicle checks to combat smuggling. All this despite Norway having a closer and more integrated trade relationship with EU than Britain currently plans to have.