to think there must be some kind of border in Ireland / Northern Ireland because of people

[kalapattar]

All the talk has been about goods and services.

But how will people travel between the UK and Ireland without a physical border? Passport checks, immigration status etc. There won't be a border between mainland UK and Northern Ireland so how will this work?

I just read a headline saying 'no options are acceptable',

I don't know whether that makes me want to laugh or cry. Surely, in the absence of any suitable options the status quo has to win out?

As regards to the plan upthread about cutting off England - and having Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland remain happily inside the EU...Wales voted to leave.

Once again, we're being asked to clean up the UK's mess created by their own utterly oblivious hubris. Yeah, I expect it probably does look to them like we might as well sort this out for them.

Maybe they think brexit isn't enough of a headache to land use with?

Come on, explain just what makes you think this is the best solution?

No options acceptable - good summary.

When will TM, the UK government (and to a lesser extent Arlene Foster) admit this is a fuckup?

Of course Brexiters don't care because they don't give a shit about NI. They'd be happy to have a sea border and chuck the Unionists under the bus, or a land border and see a return to violence, they really don't care. If they did they might have thought before voting to leave.

Come on, explain just what makes you think this is the best solution?

I can only assume that these suggestions are some kind of sophisticated satire. The poster at the top of the page who wasn't able to name our country's correctly can surely only be joking when she suggests that Ireland should take an an economically inactive population, almost equal to its own and supply them with social welfare, adequate housing, health services etc. at their own bequest and without our permission, just to make GB's jingoistic ambitions a tad easier?

That kind of arrogance can't be real, can it?

I popped this on a different thread but its relevant to this one ....
If the UK leaves the EU, we become like any other non EU country that has a land order with the EU
like Ukraine or Belarus or Bosnia or Albania.
You'll accept that at those EU / non EU land borders there are pretty strict customs controls to ensure that what is coming into the EU is allowed.
The border between RoI and Northern Ireland will be in exactly the same category.

There are some non EU countries that are in the main Customs Union (Switzerland and Norway and Leichtenstein) and they pay into the EU and accept all EU decisions on product standards.
They have nearly frictionless trade because they have complied wit the rules before the border.

Turkey has a land border with the EU and a form of Customs Union.
Because Turkey does not pay in and does not already comply with rules, the average wait to clear customs is 12 hours.

The waits to cross in from countries not in the EU and not in Customs Unions can run to days as paperwork is checked against lorry contents and import duty is collected.

The UK has had seamless movement across the NI border and through the channel posts since 1992
UK business and industry is built around stuff going back and forth
the engine head block of a BMW car crosses the channel 5 times before its driven out of the UK showroom
If companies cannot have seamless movement, the simplest thing for them will be to move all production to the bits of the EU that remain seamless.

the engine head block of a BMW car crosses the channel 5 times before its driven out of the UK showroom

Off topic, but I have raised this before - how in the name of fuck does that make ANY environmental or economic sense?

frankchicken
does that make ANY environmental or economic sense?
Economic sense = specialist factories
eg the one in the UK that does valve seats incredible well for lots of manufacturers
and the one in the UK that does gaskets really well for lots of manufacturers

Environmental sense = one really specialist factory that runs 24/7 probably has a lower carbon footprint than lots of smaller less efficient ones

This is why I will never understand economics. I was gobsmacked to read that for every barrel of oil that comes out of the ground 27 are traded on the stockmarket

Thank fuck people like me aren't making major economic decisions like whether to stay in the EU or not

I was gobsmacked to read that for every barrel of oil that comes out of the ground 27 are traded on the stockmarket
Because they are bought and sold multiple times before they leave the ground and multiple times after before finally being refined and distilled into multiple products
which are each bought and sold multiple times
before final use

Can I just correct something. This is not a British mess, the British didn't create this. It's an English mess and the blame lies with them (us).

I'm English and ashamed to be so, I'm ashamed of my country and embarrassed by our stupidity and racism.

The SNP have already raised the issue of Scottish independence off the back of Brexit, and it didn’t go well.

I generally have seen the GFA referred to as the GFA or Belfast Argreement. I always thought it was like the treaty of Versailles and because of where it was signed?

There isn’t an easy answer to any of this, unless we scrap Brexit. I’m not holding my breath.

KennDodd Eh? It was the UK parliament who agreed to hold a referendum, and the UK populace who voted (or did not, shame on them). I don't think apportioning blame is going to help anyone.

Kendodd
Wales voted out. (massively net recipients of EU money)
Kernow voted out (ditto)

**
Can I just correct something. This is not a British mess, the British didn't create this. It's an English mess and the blame lies with them (us).

This. I was too scared to say it, but it’s true! (I’m in Scotland, I wish we’d voted fr independent in 2015)

Lobsterface Given that England accounts for 80% of the UK population, any referendum is going to be greatly influenced by the English. Unless we went for a 1 country 1 vote system, I don't see any other way of holding them? (maybe the answer is not to - I would tend to agree)

I know, it’s just incredibly frustrating - I really worry about Brexit and the long term implications. I wish they’d never held the bloody referendum - or that DC had looked at the result and taken a bit more time to consider the ramifications of leaving.

FYI Watching PMQs on Wednesday I noticed that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom calls it the Belfast Agreement. Just though I would put that out there for you all to slag off the UK even more.

I would also like to run up the flag pole that Sinn Féin refuse to even call N.Ireland by its actual name name, instead refer to it as just the north of Ireland. But lets not get bogged down in insulting details.

This talk of a United Ireland is a non-starter. The people of N.Ireland show no desire to give up their citizenship of the UK. So any discussion of that being a way forward is just stirring up trouble a red herring.

Had the UK not joined the EU at the same time as the ROI would everyone have called the ROI selfish idiots for causing a problem, no because that was a democrat right, we would just have got on with it and worked out a way forward.

The UK has democratically decided to leave the EU, its not a mess its not a disaster its our right. Unless of course the EU is a dictatorship and we should be forced to stay? Instead of digging a grave lets focus on creating a good relationship with each other instead of making it worse.

Even in N.Ireland you cannot run the country in fear of the IRA starting mass killings again, we have to move on with a sensible free trade agreement with the EU and keeping the border as easy to cross as possible.

Instead of digging a grave lets focus on creating a good relationship with each other instead of making it worse.
The EU is still waiting for the UK to come up with a plan that is not riddled with internal contradictions.

Do you have one ?

This is not a British mess, the British didn't create this. It's an English mess and the blame lies with them
Only had more people in Scotland voted to remain it would have swung the vote the other way, but they didn't. Scotland has the right to leave the UK and join the EU but they shown no signs of wanting to do that.

So you can blame anyone you want but its just as much the fault of the people in Scotland and Wales as it is in England.

Do you have one ? lol no I am going to be cremated.

The UK has democratically decided to leave the EU ... its our right.

And with rights come responsibilities. Something the breixteers seem to forget about as they bleat on about their rights.

The UK has a responsibility to exit the EU in a way that doesn't jettison previously existing international agreements (like the GFA) and doesn't undermine the rights of its own inhabitants (nationalists in Northern Ireland, who have an enshrined right to identify as Irish citizens if they wish).

This should all have been sorted out long before the referendum with the details then put to the people. But the Tories didn't do this, because they didn't take their responsibilities to anyone (including the British public) seriously.

It's now their responsibility to come up with a solution. They've contributed nothing of note, instead they've passed the buck, blamed others, denied there's a problem, pissed and moaned. As an aside, this also has the effect of trashing their international reputation more generally. Quite why anyone would want to trade with them after this fiasco I've no idea.

If they want to exercise their precious rights, they need to knuckle down and find a solution to a very complex problem. The world is fucking sick of their bullshit.

The UK has democratically decided to leave the EU, its not a mess its not a disaster its our right.

Just like all the people of the island of Ireland voted democratically for the GFA. You don't get to call that a mess or a disaster - its our right.

When two opposing groups have competing rights that will contravene the other, it gets messy.
Brexiters tried saying that Brexit won't contravene the GFA, and some people were ill-informed enough to believe them, or stupid enough not to care.

Now it's clear to everyone that Brexit and the GFA are entirely incompatible, Brexiters are changing their tune, hence Boris' leaked letter to the PM which is talking about a hard border. The shills online are moving to that message too.
This is where people across both communities have to put differences aside and speak up for continued peace and steps towards greater prosperity. Individuals are doing so - all my Catholic and Protestant friends want to preserve the GFA above all else. Hence the north of Ireland voting to remain - we all knew Brexit was incompatible with the GFA.
The EU have said their piece - tomorrow we hear TM's response. What can she do other than kick this back into the long grass? The problem is, the lawnmower runs over the grass in a few months... she can't do that much longer.

Julie, attitudes like yours are exactly why NI can't progress. You are one sided in your views and have no respect for others views. Everyone on this post can't be wrong about you... think you need to take a hard look at yourself. Some of your comments are offensive and incorrect.

So you have no plan? Just like TM - she has no plan either. But you come on multiple threads criticizing everyone else (Ireland, the EU, Old Mother HUbbard and all) for not having a plan? A way forward would be good, we all know that, but since the UK government hasn't come up with a single suggestion in the last 18 months I'm not holding my breath.

By the way, while IRA violence is always possible, it's not IRA violence that is most likely at the moment, but Loyalist violence if NI is treated differently from the rest of the UK.

Sinn Fein may call it "the north of Ireland" - at least that's geographically correct compared to DUP's use of the word "Ulster".

The whole thing is a fucking mess.

It's odd that Julie talked so much about democracy when the majority in NI voted for the GFA and against Brexit.