to think there must be some kind of border in Ireland / Northern Ireland because of people

[kalapattar]

All the talk has been about goods and services.

But how will people travel between the UK and Ireland without a physical border? Passport checks, immigration status etc. There won't be a border between mainland UK and Northern Ireland so how will this work?

The IOM is not in the EU, however it is covered in a specific clause of the treaty the EU & UK signed in 72 when the UK joined.

To give NI the same status as the IOM, there would need to be a new treaty, specifically covering NI between the EU and NI only, giving it a separate status than the rest of the UK. In the unlikely event of this even being discussed Scotland would demand the same status, and possibly London as well. It wont happen.

I seem to remember the arguments about the border was "It will be fine, it will get sorted, don't worry about it, look we're going to take back control, we'll have control of our laws, our borders, who works in our country, control over who enters our country and we might be able to set up all our own deals including with the EU".

People who said"Yes..but" were ignored or belittled.

Now it seems that people expect detail and the Government is still saying "It will be fine".

The clock is ticking.

It's not a Unionist thing, it's a Loyalist thing.

Yes. Apologies, I shouldn't have said Unionist. I'd written "rabid Unionist, like Kate Hooey" then deleted rabid because I didn't want it to appear like I was saying that all Unionists are rabid.

Arlene calls it the Belfast agreement: (this is from her statement in early December.)

"The Republic of Ireland claim to be guarantors of the Belfast Agreement but they are clearly seeking to unilaterally change the Belfast Agreement without our input or consent."

I am sure it will all be fine in the end. There won't ever be a hard border again I am sure of that. But they will think of something.

The best thing to happen really would be a united Ireland and then the UK is just England, Wales and Scotland. Would solve the problem.

Using the term "Belfast Agreement" is like in the old days Ian Paisley's using the word Ulster - it's designed to sneer. Of course we are back to the bad old days with Ian Paisley Jr and Sammy Wilson bringing back the "No surrender" chants

The only person who is more deluded in all this than Theresa May is Arlene Foster. Neither seem to have any awareness of the seriousness of the issues. They both seem to think that if they just barrel on saying "no, no, we want, we want, we won't, we won't" then it'll all just work out.

Twats.

I think some people would just want England to be its own country...with a massive border around it.

Oh, look, Google has showed me someone more deluded

Ian Paisley really is a chip off the old block.

Youshallnotpass, your suggestion would lead directly to violence. The Unionist paramilitaries have plenty of arms, and plenty of money to get more.

kalapattar, I've suggested that before.

Rebuild Hadrian's Wall (and yes I know it's not exactly in the right place but the suggestion is symbolic) and pull down the Severn Bridge. Wales, Scotland and NI could remain happily in the EU

That's optimistic to the point of being Pollyanna Youshallnotpass!

It would certainly solve one aspect if the UK government could wash its hands of us, but surely you must see it would create new problems in it's turn that would still be the UK's headache. Look at the amount of public service and government jobs in NI for the start, the amount the UK would have to pay Ireland to take us, the violence it would trigger from loyalists...

The best thing to happen really would be a united Ireland and then the UK is just England, Wales and Scotland. Would solve the problem.

Cheers and don't think we're ungrateful for the offer but no thanks.

Best wishes

The Irish

PS. Spain might still take Gibraltar, if you're quick.

As an English person who has only briefly visited both parts of Ireland, may I politely suggest anyone living outside the island who tells them what they should do, ought to MYOFB.

Even if there was public appetite in ROI to take on NI (and this is far from a given) now would be a terrible time to precipitate the issue.

Brexit is a monumental pain in the arse for ROI, economically it's terrible, the British Government dicking around has been very difficult to deal with, there's a fear that violence will erupt in their doorstep.

The Irish are thoroughly sick of cleaning up the UK's Brexit mess (and we haven't even really started). Incorporating NI on top of that (even assuming it would happen peacefully) is a step much too far. The Irish are sick of the UK trying to make brexit its problem.

And then there's the DUP. And the wider unionist population, who really shouldn't be thrown under the bus because the brits are finding this Brexit shit too hard.

A united Ireland is the best way forward and always has been. IMHO.

Best way forward for who vivienne?

For people who have listened to all this trouble for decades and it's raised its head yet again.

Apologies wrong thread - have reported

I'm not sure what that means vivienne

Yes, it must be terrible to be inconvenienced by having to listen to an account of something you don't have to live though

A serious united Ireland proposal at this time would result in the return of violence. A sea border will also probably cause a return of violence - Unionist violence in both cases.

A land border will be hellish for everyone - it's impossible to man it (too many crossings, too much money); having a notional border won't work - there will have to be some checks for goods and the UK won't like Ireland being a back door for immigrants. Police/army/border guard placement would bring about a threat of violence (probably Nationalist violence in this situation) and a reversion to the bad old days of protection money and smuggling gangs.

The way I see it, there are only two solutions. First is for the UK government to actually be proactive, to realise they've cocked up, to suggest some sort of interim remaining in the Customs Union for the whole of the UK (with the requisite free travel that brings) until a long term solution can be found.

The long term solution is probably an independent NI, which is allowed to vote whether they want to stay in the EU or not. Scotland would probably jump on the bandwagon and try to do similar.

It's still a mess, but less likely to have violent protests in the short term.

Of course Brexiters won't like it because they want to leave NOW and fuck the consequences (easy to say when they refuse to believe them)

How can anyone seriously suggest that the Irish take on this British problem?

The Unionists are proud British subjects, more so that the mainland British. How would you mainland British feel if the area in which their lived were annexed by a forigen power? How would they feel if their own were suggesting this happened? Would you drop a bit of the south east of England as easily?

The Julies of this world might be a bit annoying and short on facts but do you not feel a bit of shame suggesting stripping her of her nationality to tidy up a difficult bit of admin?

Vivienne - for many of the people who lived through the Troubles (rather than just had to hear about them ), a united Ireland would bring a return to violence on their doorstep.

There is no simple answer here unless the whole of the UK stays in the single market and customs union.

I am praying that TM will finally see sense.

SilentlyScreamingAgain I suppose if we look at history, the British are pretty good at wiping their hands of messes of their own creation while walking away then tutting about why can't people just can't get along. It's just never been as close geographically to them before.

I just read a headline saying 'no options are acceptable', And that just about sums it up. Good post from Maryz. I agree that eventually NI would need to vote and decide whether to join with Eire, remain part of the UK, or go independent. I don't think it's an option for the whole of the country to remain in the Customs union. I thought the EU said we couldn't anyway. Scotland can't remain in the customs Union if we leave the EU even if they'd probably like to.